Forums > Personal > bring back national service in the UK

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Posted: 09 Sep 07, 10:07 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

i dont normally agree with the Tory philosophy but they are suggesting bringing back some form of Citizen Service here in the UK.
however i dont think they are going far enough with this.i personally think they should bring back full National Service and force all these uncontrollable 16+ year old hoodie yobbo's to sign up for 3 years of national duty.
it will get them off the streets,show some respect,not only for themselves but for others and make the lack of personel in the UK Armed Forces obsolete.
instead of giving them ASBO's send them to boot camp for 3 months for a first offence,6 months for a second and a year for a third.
it seems as if the educational system is failing these cretins so a few years getting shot at in a foreign country might make them buck their ideas up and make them show some respect for fellow countrymen and their property.
i witnessed 5 of these hoodie twats smashing up a bench which had been dedicated to the "war dead" at 1am this morning just because they were pissed and had nothing better to do than be vandals.i would of confronted these twats but in the current climate you never know if they have guns or not.

am i the only one who thinks National Service should be brought back or are there a few decent UK citizens that agree with me?

discuss



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Posted: 09 Sep 07, 10:54 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

In Brazil, 18 years old guys are forced to do that, and I'm TOTALLY against it. I didn't ask to be born in this shitty country, and I have the right not to want to serve it. If they don't like it, they can send me to another country if they wish - I swear I won't mind it.

I bet there are English guys who think the same.


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Posted: 09 Sep 07, 11:06 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

It is a good idea, but it may be seen by Labour as Cameron "hugging the hoodies" again. However, some sort of service duty is the answer.

Something needs to be done to tackle the yob culture. More police, better gun control, or better still - curfew for persistent offenders. If curfew is broken, then send them to a correctional facility for a few months.

As for the state of the education system, don't get me started on that.

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Posted: 09 Sep 07, 11:11 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Topic-starter is a FASCIST.
Forced military service is a remnant of nationalist ideology, that caused us two world wars. Anyone supporting the outrageous thought of reïnstating such a completely barbaric institution deserves to be thrown in the sea. The money that would have to be wasted on your (and the tories') ridiculous idea would have to come from funds used otherwise on IMPORTANT things like healthcare, education. It would cost fortunes, and what would you do? Train people to KILL. And you think that'll solve anything? Fuck, you're stupid!


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Posted: 09 Sep 07, 11:17 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

I've heard the same arguments revolving around re-instating the Draft here in the US, since they claim they are so short of forces (which is their own damn fault, but it's another story). I agree that some of this idiots really need the discipline of the military since they obviously aren't getting it in the homes and you can't give it in the schools or you'll get sued. In the US men on the age of 18 still have to register for the selective service, just in case there ever is a return to mandatory military service or the draft.
But it's never going to happen for one reason: Women. If they opened up the draft or mandatory military service again, they'd have to draft women as well as men, to make it fair and non-discriminatory. But they can't do that for a number of reasons:
1) They still won't send women into the front lines...the closest they ever get are intelligence gathering missions (which in Iraq seem to be more dangerous than the front lines of combat, but never mind that)
2) There are more women than men statistically on the planet, so they'd bring in more women and then not be able to use them the way that they could use men, which is the whole argument for re-instating a system like that anyway....why bother going for people you can't use?
3) They also know damn well they can't draft all of the women and men between the ages of 18-30. Even making exceptions for the people who couldn't make it because of health reasons there wouldn't be enough people left in this age group to work anywhere. And I'm not just talking shitty jobs like McDonalds or Universities either....the top money earners in this age group are the college graduates who are going right into the career world. This population would disappear if it was forced into mandatory service, and since this service is currently paying into the system that is letting the Greatest Generation live high on the hog with no guarantee of us actually having anything left when we get to their age, the shock waves would reverberate throughout the economy.
As far as a few years of service in the military goes....from about the age 16-19 or so, though I think it's unlikely for the reasons articulated above I'd be fine with it if they could do it. Your country, Marv, and mine are suffering from a total break-down in discipline of the young. The parents simply don't do it, but they won't let anyone else do it either. The result is kids who have never been disciplined, and they are invariably the twats and general morons you see everwhere...who then go on to breed and not raise more children, thus feeding the cycle. To keep society from decaying completely from the inside, someone has to step in and do something. If the parents won't do it, and the schools can't, then the government sure as hell can.
Like I said....it's not likely though.


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Posted: 09 Sep 07, 11:25 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

<b><font color = "crimson"> ThomasQuinn wrote:

Topic-starter is a FASCIST.
Forced military service is a remnant of nationalist ideology, that caused us two world wars. Anyone supporting the outrageous thought of reïnstating such a completely barbaric institution deserves to be thrown in the sea. The money that would have to be wasted on your (and the tories') ridiculous idea would have to come from funds used otherwise on IMPORTANT things like healthcare, education. It would cost fortunes, and what would you do? Train people to KILL. And you think that'll solve anything? Fuck, you're stupid!


Caspar...you are an intelligent guy. But even you are smart enough to know that throwing money at the problem won't solve anything at all. So your idea is to take the money this would cost and put in into health care and education and then all of the problems will be solved? Great idea! I'm very for everyone having health care and a good education system.
But here comes the flaw in your logic:
The money that would be spent on a program like what Joxer mentioned is ALREADY being spent on programs like that, because the program that Joxer mentioned does not exist. So you have your ideal...the money is going to education and health care and a number of other goods. But we still seem to have this problem of a lack of discipline causing behavioral problems among the youth population. I hardly think throwing more money at it will solve the problem.
And contrary to what you believe, you can learn more in the military than just killing. Maybe if you go into the Army and the Infantry that's all you'd learn, but there are other branches. My friend just joined the Air Force, and believe it or not she's going to be a linguist with them...there will be no killing involved for her. You can learn many things besides killing people. Things like logistics, planning, technology and technology repair, and believe it or not even music, world cultural education, international relations and law.
And besides....people under 18 would not serve in war time anyway. It would be run like the Army ROTC here in the US. You get military training and such, but you never go to war. Not until you are 18 years old. It's a bit like a military internship program.


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Posted: 09 Sep 07, 11:25 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Having anyone under 18 in the army is a WAR CRIME, as dealt with by the Geneva Convention.


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Posted: 09 Sep 07, 11:31 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

For the first time, I have to agree with Caspar in a thread about politics.


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Posted: 09 Sep 07, 11:38 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

First off:

The army is an institute devoted to KILLING. Or are you going to tell me they use guns to water the plants? An army is meant to kill soldiers from another country to gain land or defend it. Any other skills you might learn are subsidiary to the first two: "Obey orders unquestioningly!" and "Kill!"

Now that first one; whatever else the military will teach you, its foremost effect will be that the subject is completely conditioned to take orders without questioning them. When they get out of the service, voila, a mass of people who will do their jobs and take orders UNQUESTIONINGLY. The boss is ALWAYS right. That is not a country I want.

Second:

Healthcare and education weren't my alternatives, they were the places the Right traditionally draws funds from when they need money. What is my alternative? Yes more money to schooling, and not just that: legislation making sure that minors cannot leave school without a diploma, money for youth workers, subsidies for facilities to function as an alternative to loitering on the streets. What else? Subsidized jobs for hard-to-solve cases of unemployed (youths), more help available to parents in case trouble arises with their children. Think along THOSE lines for solutions. Coërcion will SUPPRESS a problem for the time being, it will NEVER solve anything.


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Posted: 09 Sep 07, 12:22 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Young, bored idiots with too much money or too much spare time is a very real problem in my part of the world : I don't suggest national service as a real solution. It's only 50% effective. It works in that you're getting rid of all these abusive maggots, but it fails completely in that it puts them in the military, and that's the best way to turn someone into a total moron. People come out of the military fucked up. My own cousin is still having to slowly reprogram himself after getting out of the army, and they dropped him like a sack of shit and offered him no compensation once he got injured.

We should be packing these idiots off somewhere, but the military isn't the place for them - unless they never come back, of course!


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Posted: 09 Sep 07, 12:54 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

I'm afraid I disagree completely with the idea. On the surface it may seem like a reasonable suggestion, but many of these hoodies are not likely to change. Furthermore, giving them military and weapon training and discipline will most likely make them far more dangerous to the public than what they are now. Not every thug can be rehabilitated like those in Bad Lads' Army.

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Posted: 09 Sep 07, 12:57 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

First off:
The army is an institute devoted to KILLING. Or are you going to tell me they use guns to water the plants? An army is meant to kill soldiers from another country to gain land or defend it. Any other skills you might learn are subsidiary to the first two: "Obey orders unquestioningly!" and "Kill!"

The Army is an institution devoted to defense. Most of the time this involves killing I will admit. You are speaking of an offensive army, which is completely different. The Army is not constantly at war, if you will recall. As a matter of fact, most border changes for the last 50 years have been the results of civil wars (read army conflict with "dissidents" from home countries)...nothing on the offensive end of killing soldiers from another country. See for an example basically every Easter European nation since the fall of Communism. Wars for territorial gain have thus been limited to the borders that they already embrace (see Africa). That doesn't meet your definition of "killing soldiers from another country to gain land". But if you would rather have no army in your country (and the Netherlands has a military, unless I'm mistaken) then go right ahead....but don't think it will go unnoticed if you suddenly disband the military. I'd like to think that humans are above such squabbling after thousands of years of evolution, but unfortunately we are not. The military remains a necessary evil for any country.

Now that first one; whatever else the military will teach you, its foremost effect will be that the subject is completely conditioned to take orders without questioning them. When they get out of the service, voila, a mass of people who will do their jobs and take orders UNQUESTIONINGLY. The boss is ALWAYS right. That is not a country I want.

So how does this explain all of the soldiers who are coming back from Iraq, and who are blogging from Iraq, who are openly challenging the military hierarchy? If they are turned into mindless machines who do nothing but obey orders, as you allege, then we wouldn't see returning soldiers fighting their assignments to go back and openly going to the press with challenges to the top brass. I can think of many other things that turn people into unquestioning robots besides the military (religion for example).
Let's look at the problem from another angle, shall we? Why do we have laws, Caspar? We have laws to keep order in society, am I right? The fact that we need laws to do this is sad, and I think both you and I would agree on that. But it's reality, so we have to start with what we have. Laws are needed to keep society in order. Now, I ask you, what good are these laws if no one obeys them? Not very good, I'd say. Order in society is made possibly by the existance of laws (which are based on societal customs and values, blah blah blah), but people have to obey these laws for them to be any good at all. I think we can agree on this. The problem that Joxer is addressing is people who will not obey said laws...they are causing disorder in society. Now a certain about of disorder is nothing to panic about; indeed I'd be scared if society was too harmonious. But it's getting to the point where people are too scared to confront people who are damaging personal property for fear they'll be hurt or killed. This is an unhealthy level of disorder, and it's bad for society when it becomes dangerous like this. So the idea of taking these people into an institution and forcing them to obey the laws that society has set down for a while is not necessarily a bad thing...this is the idea behind jail. But the military can accomplish the same thing...it can instill a respect for authority that these people are lacking, an it is respect for authority that keeps society functioning in a healthy way. Or would you rather we lock all of these kids up in jail forever? We can try that, but it hasn't worked.

Education?


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Posted: 09 Sep 07, 14:41 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Nathan wrote:

I'm afraid I disagree completely with the idea. On the surface it may seem like a reasonable suggestion, but many of these hoodies are not likely to change. Furthermore, giving them military and weapon training and discipline will most likely make them far more dangerous to the public than what they are now. Not every thug can be rehabilitated like those in Bad Lads' Army.


Thats exactly what I thought. National service is not the way to go as I also think it would just make these idiots worse, unfortunately.


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Posted: 09 Sep 07, 15:17 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

HistoryGirl wrote:

First off:
The army is an institute devoted to KILLING. Or are you going to tell me they use guns to water the plants? An army is meant to kill soldiers from another country to gain land or defend it. Any other skills you might learn are subsidiary to the first two: "Obey orders unquestioningly!" and "Kill!"

The Army is an institution devoted to defense. Most of the time this involves killing I will admit. You are speaking of an offensive army, which is completely different. The Army is not constantly at war, if you will recall. As a matter of fact, most border changes for the last 50 years have been the results of civil wars (read army conflict with "dissidents" from home countries)...nothing on the offensive end of killing soldiers from another country. See for an example basically every Easter European nation since the fall of Communism. Wars for territorial gain have thus been limited to the borders that they already embrace (see Africa). That doesn't meet your definition of "killing soldiers from another country to gain land". But if you would rather have no army in your country (and the Netherlands has a military, unless I'm mistaken) then go right ahead....but don't think it will go unnoticed if you suddenly disband the military. I'd like to think that humans are above such squabbling after thousands of years of evolution, but unfortunately we are not. The military remains a necessary evil for any country.

Now that first one; whatever else the military will teach you, its foremost effect will be that the subject is completely conditioned to take orders without questioning them. When they get out of the service, voila, a mass of people who will do their jobs and take orders UNQUESTIONINGLY. The boss is ALWAYS right. That is not a country I want.

So how does this explain all of the soldiers who are coming back from Iraq, and who are blogging from Iraq, who are openly challenging the military hierarchy? If they are turned into mindless machines who do nothing but obey orders, as you allege, then we wouldn't see returning soldiers fighting their assignments to go back and openly going to the press with challenges to the top brass. I can think of many other things that turn people into unquestioning robots besides the military (religion for example).
Let's look at the problem from another angle, shall we? Why do we have laws, Caspar? We have laws to keep order in society, am I right? The fact that we need laws to do this is sad, and I think both you and I would agree on that. But it's reality, so we have to start with what we have. Laws are needed to keep society in order. Now, I ask you, what good are these laws if no one obeys them? Not very good, I'd say. Order in society is made possibly by the existance of laws (which are based on societal customs and values, blah blah blah), but people have to obey these laws for them to be any good at all. I think we can agree on this. The problem that Joxer is addressing is people who will not obey said laws...they are causing disorder in society. Now a certain about of disorder is nothing to panic about; indeed I'd be scared if society was too harmonious. But it's getting to the point where people are too scared to confront people who are damaging personal property for fear they'll be hurt or killed. This is an unhealthy level of disorder, and it's bad for society when it becomes dangerous like this. So the idea of taking these people into an institution and forcing them to obey the laws that society has set down for a while is not necessarily a bad thing...this is the idea behind jail. But the military can accomplish the same thing...it can instill a respect for authority that these people are lacking, an it is respect for authority that keeps society functioning in a healthy way. Or would you rather we lock all of these kids up in jail forever? We can


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Posted: 09 Sep 07, 15:18 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

I think TQ would like a fascist government. One where he is the ruler of everything, and if you even THINK about disagreeing with his authoritative opinions (even only one of them, or part of one), you will be condemned to an eternity of being called a FASCIST.

Everyone must adopt the national religion, which is his overly simplistic view of the world.

That said - and despite his utter lack of tact, relevance, and objectivity - I agree with him insofar as that obligatory service is unnecessary, detrimental, and a violation of individual liberties and rights.

And despite my routine dismissal of international law as pretentious and weightless, I will agree that while any forced involvement in the military is bad, forced involvement for those under the age of 18 is even worse.


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Posted: 09 Sep 07, 15:40 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

I am absolutely all for bringing back National Service (NS). Why? I have heard it primary sources, Uncles, Granddads etc that it was the best thing that could have happened to them at the time.

An uncle of mine, up to the point of ‘conscription’, had lived his youth in a pretty lawless manner. You could have compared him to one the hoodies of today. He explained to me how NS really did teach him to respect, not just for authority, but each individual. He felt it put him on the right path in life. An individual case yes, but I have never heard from ANY person who went through NS then, against the idea of today’s youth serving.

It is a complicated issue. I do not think David ‘Shit there might be an election soon and we had no policies last week’ Cameron’s Citizens Service will be the answer in full. You can guarantee it will be a watered down policy that panders to the Rights ideals and public perception, but at the same time, won’t offend the PC or liberal brigade and I bet, critically, it won’t be compulsory.

What about home life and upbringing? Is it coincidental that a large number of the young twats today that get in to trouble are from one parent families? Am I having a pop at single mums? No, as I understand that there are reasons why that parent is single is the first place. Where’s the discipline and the family unit gone? How can that be restored? Carrot or the stick? Bit of both?

Leaving school to do nothing should not be an option. It breeds apathy, which turns to boredom, frustration and anger which is taken out on society – I am generalising here. One thing we need is more apprenticeships to sustain the young that are not academically minded.

On a side note, ‘bitesthedust’ mentioned earlier about the state education system in this country. I agree it does have its problems but look around. I have not seen or heard of so many schools being built in such a short space of time. Anyone over 30 will remember classrooms with buckets on the floor catching rain water! OK, we may have to pay for them for the next decade due to the public/private partnership costs, but facilities now are 1st rate in my opinion. Regarding the perceived dumbing down of exam papers; I have many of my original GCSE exam papers and have compared them to todays. I cannot understand how anyone can say they are getting easier. I looked at last years Maths paper for example and some of the content was what I did in my A level paper back in 1991. Just because the trend of good result has gone up year on year does not always signify government spin. I congratulate anyone who achieved good grades in their recent exams. Well done!




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Posted: 09 Sep 07, 18:38 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Yeah lets put more money in the Health Service so when some poor bastard gets his throat cut by cowardly hoodies they can die surrounded by pen pushers.



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Posted: 09 Sep 07, 19:46 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

It's not the government's responsibility to teach respect, nor should the government have the authority to impose any mandatory involvement against the will of its citizens.

The government can't say, "It's for your own good, so you have to do it."

The most it should be able to do is say, "It's for your own good, and we recommend it, if you should decide to do it."


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Posted: 09 Sep 07, 20:15 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Music Man wrote:

It's not the government's responsibility to teach respect, nor should the government have the authority to impose any mandatory involvement against the will of its citizens.

The government can't say, "It's for your own good, so you have to do it."

The most it should be able to do is say, "It's for your own good, and we recommend it, if you should decide to do it."


its a little off topic to say this but they were quick enough to do exactly that to the smokers in pubs and work places so why not to hoodie vandals?


isnt innuendo an italian suppository?

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its_a_hard_life wrote:you nutcase you rule!

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Posted: 09 Sep 07, 20:26 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Because two wrongs don't make a right.


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