Forums > Personal > Phelps' Westboro Baptist Church looses case

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magicalfreddiemercury user not visiting Queenzone.com
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Posted: 01 Nov 07, 08:33 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

We've talked about this crazy group here before. They're the ones who disrupt soldier's funerals and scream about how a 'raging mad god' is punishing America by killing her soldiers and her children because we are a country of 'fag enablers'. They had to be paid and guaranteed air-time in order not to protest at the funerals of those Amish girls who were murdered a year or so ago.

Well, they've finally been sued and they've lost. The judgment against them is a whopping $10.9 million.

Think it'll hold after an appeal? Think this will stop them or just add fuel to their fire? I'm guessing the latter.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20071031/ts_nm/iraq_gay_lawsuit_dc;_ylt=AoPxrlKcdNi6Ceu7en3N0Q9Z.3QA



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Posted: 01 Nov 07, 10:48 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

I read about this yesterday, and I was very pleased about it. However, after reading the article I read at the bottom that they greeted the news of the loss with "tight lipped smiles". This says to me that they are simply going to perceive this as yet another attack on the righteous and it will simply add more fuel to their fire.
The saddest part about the whole thing is that the judgment amount is mostly symbolic. The father of the slain soldier will NEVER see any money from them at all very likely, and if he does it will not even equal 1/10 of what the judgment against them was.
Unfortunately nothing can be done about people like this who play the victim card, whether it is religious in nature or criminal in nature. If you think you are a victim and are paranoid (as these people are) you will perceive attacks from everywhere, and it will only strengthen your resolve to fight the attackers. If a case like this, where they think everyone is against them it means fighting everyone. The best way to deal with these people would be to just ignore them, since publicity and press is what they are hoping for, so they can draw more people into their web. Unfortunately, most people can't leave well enough alone and just ignore these idiots.


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Posted: 01 Nov 07, 10:55 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

HistoryGirl wrote:



Unfortunately, most people can't leave well enough alone and just ignore these idiots.


LOL. Yes, it's that feed-the-troll syndrome we often see here. :-)

It's true about the judgment being symbolic. They said the base judgment of $2.9 million was already three times the total worth of this organization - or the founder of it, I can't recall the details. But maybe it's a start. A precedent has been set. With luck, future mourners they harass will win in court, too. If nothing else, it'll keep them busy. Though, sadly, it will also garner them the attention they obviously crave.



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Posted: 01 Nov 07, 11:00 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

magicalfreddiemercury wrote:

HistoryGirl wrote:



Unfortunately, most people can't leave well enough alone and just ignore these idiots.


LOL. Yes, it's that feed-the-troll syndrome we often see here. :-)

It's true about the judgment being symbolic. They said the base judgment of $2.9 million was already three times the total worth of this organization - or the founder of it, I can't recall the details. But maybe it's a start. A precedent has been set. With luck, future mourners they harass will win in court, too. If nothing else, it'll keep them busy. Though, sadly, it will also garner them the attention they obviously crave.


^^ Well said. Of course we could just eliminate these people, but unfortunately (like the war on terror) this is a fight against an idea. Kill he people that have the idea, but you didn't stop the idea. There will always be more people to buy into this type of crap; that's the saddest part of all.


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Posted: 01 Nov 07, 11:40 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

How can they convert people to their church if the church is financially in the hole? Doesn't that render them defunct?

The presence of this group of people (which is essentially his family plus a few more) isn't going to make like-minded people any more or less ignorant. If someone is that bigoted, they don't need to hear about like-minded people to be motivated to spread their bigotry. They're already doing it!

All in all, this topic has brought great news: A victory for humanity, rationality, and tolerance.



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Posted: 01 Nov 07, 11:51 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Sir GH<br><h6>ah yeah</h6> wrote:

How can they convert people to their church if the church is financially in the hole? Doesn't that render them defunct?


All US Churches are "in the hole", if they want to be. You see, they're not taxed or regulated by any government agency. They're their own watchdog.

That's why a fine is meaningless. There are other ways to hurt these people: Thrown 'em in jail with some of those 'fag enablers'. Take away their Nascar tickets. Find out where they hold THEIR funerals. Show up at their church on Sunday, naked.

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Posted: 01 Nov 07, 12:36 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Micrówave wrote:

There are other ways to hurt these people: Thrown 'em in jail with some of those 'fag enablers'. Take away their Nascar tickets. Find out where they hold THEIR funerals. Show up at their church on Sunday, naked.


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Posted: 01 Nov 07, 12:37 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Microwave is right...Churches are seperate from government completely. Tax exempt, unable to receive government funds, all that kind of stuff.
But this assumes they are affiliated with a larger church group, like all Lutheran churches are together and all Anglican churches are together, etc. If one specific church is having trouble, then the others in the group will bail it out. This looks like a backyard, non-affiliated group to me, and thus they have no help.
Doesn't stop them from meeting, but it also makes it harder for anyone to get money out of them if they can just dissolve the very informal organization.


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Posted: 01 Nov 07, 20:50 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

i found it interesting that there was little to no outrage by the public when these same people disrupted hundreds and hundreds of funerals of people who passed from AIDS and HIV...including a friend of mine...

little 5-10 second news blurbs...then silence


now they start at military funerals and the establishment, and public are suddenly all up for a fight with these bigots....sadly its the same message they have been throwing out there for years..
silence for gays---court fight for the str8t folks

i guess i should be honored that i and my many brothers and sisters are the root of everything bad happening these days....

hmm i wonder what else i can cause tonight

bubble bubble boil and trouble.....



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Posted: 02 Nov 07, 04:13 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

That's awful. I think I could not bear such hostility when a loved one is buried, how cruel. The worst to watch for me were the children holding up these posters. That's about as perverse as guys blowing themselves up in the name of God. Isn't it illegal to stir up hatred against anyone in public - gays or soldiers alike? There should be something like a restriction order to enable a judge to send these people to jail if they cause another disturbance of a funeral.


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Posted: 02 Nov 07, 04:35 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

No one worth anything to humanity will cry at Phelps' funeral.


"Your not funny, your not a good musician, theres a difference between being funny and being an idiot, you obviously being the latter" - Dave R Fuller
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Posted: 02 Nov 07, 08:13 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

iron eagle wrote:


now they start at military funerals and the establishment, and public are suddenly all up for a fight with these bigots....sadly its the same message they have been throwing out there for years..
silence for gays---court fight for the str8t folks



I'm not so sure about this. I've seen them in the news plenty of times for what they've done at various funerals - not just of soldiers, but yes, of homosexuals, and even what they planned to do at the funeral of the young Amish girls I mentioned earlier.

I think the difference here is not that it was a soldier's funeral they picketed, but that the soldier's family did something about it. That's what's making news now.

YourValentine-

About laws against this kind of thing, there aren't any - unless you count the one I believe says they have to remain 500 feet away from the actual ceremony or burial. That doesn't mean they can't line the street and chant as the funeral procession passes, though.

And then there's freedom of speech. Since they're not inciting a riot or a panic, they're within their rights.

They're all lawyers in that 'church'. They know how to stay to the right of legal. That's why I wondered if this ruling against them will hold. Maybe they've already prepared for that and have their next step planned.



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Posted: 02 Nov 07, 11:06 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

YourValentine wrote:

The worst to watch for me were the children holding up these posters.


Me too. It's horrible.

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Posted: 02 Nov 07, 12:32 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

magicalfreddiemercury wrote:

iron eagle wrote:


now they start at military funerals and the establishment, and public are suddenly all up for a fight with these bigots....sadly its the same message they have been throwing out there for years..
silence for gays---court fight for the str8t folks



I'm not so sure about this. I've seen them in the news plenty of times for what they've done at various funerals - not just of soldiers, but yes, of homosexuals, and even what they planned to do at the funeral of the young Amish girls I mentioned earlier.

I think the difference here is not that it was a soldier's funeral they picketed, but that the soldier's family did something about it. That's what's making news now.

YourValentine-

About laws against this kind of thing, there aren't any - unless you count the one I believe says they have to remain 500 feet away from the actual ceremony or burial. That doesn't mean they can't line the street and chant as the funeral procession passes, though.

And then there's freedom of speech. Since they're not inciting a riot or a panic, they're within their rights.

They're all lawyers in that 'church'. They know how to stay to the right of legal. That's why I wondered if this ruling against them will hold. Maybe they've already prepared for that and have their next step planned.



there needs to be some loophole for the 'freedom of speech laws. for people that are causing true harm to people who are GRIEVING, they deserve to be locked up. it is putting an emotional and mental toll on these families.
and how do they know if that person was gay or not? ther have been many funerals they have shown up to that im sure they were mistaken. either way, like any of the crazies out there, they really dont deserve rights once they have hurt someone, and perpetuate it.


im trying to avoid a tangent, but theres some things in this country that let too much slide. this is one thing i would not allow, regardless of our 'freedom of speech'. its the fact that they do put possible lives in danger. they provoke people's anger, and that right there is one thing that CAN cause a riot, and CAN cause wrongful deaths or injuries (even on the perps, which im sure most want to see, but nonetheless isnt right). its all unnessesary. its like the KKK, unneeded and intolerant, they have caused death and harm to people, yet they are allowed to exist.
exteremists altogether need to be locked away, IMO. nothing good comes from them, or at least i have yet to see any.

alright im done.

on the subject though, im glad something has been done about it. i can only hope those evil people either grow up or be put in their true places eventually.


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Posted: 02 Nov 07, 12:35 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

YourValentine wrote:

Isn't it illegal to stir up hatred against anyone in public - gays or soldiers alike? There should be something like a restriction order to enable a judge to send these people to jail if they cause another disturbance of a funeral.


Unfortunately not here. Freedom of speech / Freedom to assemble is important to me, but some like to take that WAY too far.

People are going to be stupid. And if there is a perfect study group, it's the deep south in the US. Less than a month ago, we had a big racial boiling point in Louisiana. Thousands of black activists marched on the city. It shut the whole town down, there were so many people. Didn't stop a couple of yayhoos from driving their pickup thru town with a noose hanging from it. While they were arrested for DUI and some pot, the noose display was not a chargeable offense.

They oughta legalize kicking someone's ass. Right before I die, I'm joining the army and going gay, just so these people show up. Every one who attends my funeral gets a baseball bat and a bottle of gin. Swing away, Merrill.

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Posted: 02 Nov 07, 13:07 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Yes, the freedom to assemble in peace and the freedom of speech is protected by our constitution, too. However, the city has to be notified in advance if you plan a public demonstration.

We have a similar problem with Nazi marches. Whenever a Nazi march takes place, the city tries to forbid it because Nazis are not welcome in any city and there is always a counter demonstration. The Nazis invariably go to court and win. However, the police can restrict the march to certain parts of the city to keep the Nazis and anti-Nazis apart.

In this sense I thought it might be possible to keep these people away from a funeral. It's not fair that people cannot bury their loved ones in peace because the freedom of speech of some perverse fanatics has the bigger legal protection.


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Posted: 02 Nov 07, 15:18 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/6507971.stm

If you can watch this documentary, it gives a good idea of what exactly this "church" is. In reality, it's little more than a cult of Phelps family members who use the name "Baptist" loosely. And to further complicate things, Phelps ran for governor of Kansas in 2000 as a Democrat.

As mentioned above, states are enacting laws to require protesters to remain 500 to 1000 feet from funerals, largely in response to Phelps's gangs. One other thing that has occurred is a counter-protest where former military members arrange a "honor guard" of Harley Davidson-riding motorcyclists who park their bikes in front of Phelps, rev their engines as much as possible when the procession passes, and then follows on.

And finally, the reason they protest military funerals is due to IEDs. At some point, a bomb exploded near their compound in Topeka, Kansas. Phelps's gang interpreted this as an attack by the government on their church. As a result, they started protesting those soldiers who died from similar explosions in Iraq, which I believe by now has just spread to all soldiers in general.

And the Tin Eagle makes an excellent point.


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Posted: 03 Nov 07, 11:10 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

If the media didn't give them any attention, they might stop what they were doing. Instead the media in the US likes to shine a huge spotlight on idiots and morons. It's ridiculous what people will do to get some notice.


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Posted: 03 Nov 07, 11:47 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Lisser wrote:

If the media didn't give them any attention, they might stop what they were doing. Instead the media in the US likes to shine a huge spotlight on idiots and morons. It's ridiculous what people will do to get some notice.


I agree. To make it all worse - coverage-wise - last night this group was featured on 20/20. In a way I was disappointed. While I don't think they should be given this air time, I feel like if it does happen, then it should be in depth. They just touched the surface of it, including, mainly as stated above, the harassment at soldiers funerals. I think it's vital to point out just how far this group will go to 'get the message out there'.

One part that was particularly disturbing was the interview with the children. John Stossil (sp?) interviewed an 8 year old and a 10 year old. They were talking with anger/rage at how 'fags' will go to hell and yet when they were asked if they knew what fags were, they hesitated. One of them finally said a fag is "someone who doesn't believe in the right god - like jews".

Then, at the end, this tiny girl, two or three years old if that, is singing a song of hate and she has this, IMO, evil little smile at the end of it.

Very disturbing. It's good that this is limited to one family but they have so many kids among them (Shirley alone has 11 kids) that this could grow into something big. Hopefully, lawsuits and judgments like the last one will keep them in check.



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Posted: 03 Nov 07, 12:03 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Lisser wrote:

If the media didn't give them any attention, they might stop what they were doing. Instead the media in the US likes to shine a huge spotlight on idiots and morons. It's ridiculous what people will do to get some notice.


Contronversy generates public attention, which then turns into high ratings.

If Bill O'Reilly was a moderate, he'd have less than half of the viewers he has right now. A lot of these viewers are disgruntled liberals who want to know what he will say next that will piss them off.


[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Brandon wrote: [/QUOTENAME]... and now the "best you can offer is Mr. Jingles? HA! He's... just pathetic.[/QUOTE]