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The Real Wizard user not visiting Queenzone.com
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Posted: 28 Nov 07, 19:06 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/cbc/071128/world/world_bear_name

Unreal. We're in the 21st century, and someone is about to receive lashings and a jail sentence over philosophy. I fully realize how religion and culture are synonymous in some parts of the world, but that doesn't make it any less ludicrous.

Discuss.



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Posted: 28 Nov 07, 20:35 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Well... Ain't THAT about a bitch?

I can't believe that things like this still happen.


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Posted: 29 Nov 07, 04:16 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Isn't Mohammed the most common name in the world?
Poor lady, she doesn't deserve that


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Posted: 29 Nov 07, 07:54 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Sir GH<br><h6>ah yeah</h6> wrote:

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/cbc/071128/world/world_bear_name

Unreal. We're in the 21st century, and someone is about to receive lashings and a jail sentence over philosophy. I fully realize how religion and culture are synonymous in some parts of the world, but that doesn't make it any less ludicrous.

Discuss.


It's all over the news in the Netherlands.
This is indeed ridiculous from our point of view. As you indeed said, we are indeed in the 21st century. But personally, I think the mentality of a lot of strictly religious people in a lot of African / Middle East countries is still somewhere in the late 1800's. Even in the US/ Europe, most religious groups are not in this century yet. They still have the morality of the early 20st century (e.g. view on woman rights, abortion, gay marriage, sex before marriage, television etc.)

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Posted: 29 Nov 07, 12:38 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

So if I'm against woman rights, abortion, gay marriage, sex before marriage, television then I'm simply "old fashioned"?

Glad to be old fashioned then.
The world was a much more understandable place.

So I have to be OK with my female co-workers making as much as me but working less.
(Statistical fact- Preganancy, child care, etc.)
And I have to be OK with my insurance rates increasing to compensate for insuring "Partners"
And I have to be OK with sex before marriage?
(I'm married, sex was much better before marriage!! This one I'm for!)
And what exactly is TV giving us now that is just mind-blowing? Oh yea, American Idol.


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Posted: 29 Nov 07, 12:46 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Micrówave wrote:

So I have to be OK with my female co-workers making as much as me but working less.
(Statistical fact- Preganancy, child care, etc.)


Those damn women and their pregnancies! Just an excuse not to go to work, if you ask me...

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Posted: 29 Nov 07, 12:52 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Micrówave wrote:

So if I'm against woman rights, abortion, gay marriage, sex before marriage, television then I'm simply "old fashioned"?


indeed, you are.


Glad to be old fashioned then.
The world was a much more understandable place.



So I have to be OK with my female co-workers making as much as me but working less.
(Statistical fact- Preganancy, child care, etc.)


Your wife might be pregnant as well in the end. And society pays for it, yess. It's a cost we pay as a society.


And I have to be OK with my insurance rates increasing to compensate for insuring "Partners"


Why would you have to pay extra for that? :S


And what exactly is TV giving us now that is just mind-blowing? Oh yea, American Idol.


Porn, football, South park and The Simpsons

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Posted: 29 Nov 07, 12:58 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

I've heard about this too...and it doesn't surprise me to be completely honest. I mean, her kids VOTED on this name!! I'm sure that they were doing it out of respect or whatever, but she will still be in trouble.
Good response William-Jen...I've said for a long time that Muslims are simply dealing with what Christianity went through in the Middle Ages with regards to fanaticism. This is just like the icon controversy in Christianity during the Middle Ages...same issues are raised. Is it appropriate to picture religious figures? What about using their names? They got a later start by a couple of hundred years, so it makes sense they'll be dealing with it now.
Microwave...I'd like to see proof of your statistics. Because the working women that I have seen work RIGHT UP until the time they go into labor (maybe stopping the week before their due date unless it is medically necessary for them to stop sooner) and are then back at work inside of 6 months...normally even sooner than that because the employers will not give them more time off. Also, even if your statistics were to prove true, many places are now giving new fathers several months off when their children are born which evens out the numbers. Plus, the argument in general is not necessarily valid. What about the women who work from home when they are technically off for maternity leave? What about the women who never have children (increasing in number in the US and Western European countries)? What about the men who have to take months off when they get some major disease like cancer? Men are also more prone to heart attacks, which leads to at least a month off on most cases. Equal pay for equal work means just that...a man and a woman doing the exact same job should get paid exactly the same amount for doing that job. Time off doesn't mean they are doing less work. We are talking about wages by hour, not wages per year.
As for the insurance argument....your insurance rates are going up at a much faster rate for obesity and smoking than they would EVER go up for insuring partners. Against gay marriage? Fine...but that doesn't mean you can discriminate against them, which is EXACTLY what this amounts too.
Sex before marriage....ok, this is a ridiculous argument. Sex before marriage has been a staple of the human community from the time of cave men on....there has NEVER been a time when there was a society that NEVER had sex before marriage.


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Posted: 29 Nov 07, 13:36 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Ok, then let me clarify.

Maggie, you said most women you know work right up until labor and are back soon after. Well, men don't have to worry about that. Plus, when the kid can't go to school, I would say Mom stays home more often than Dad.

You mentioned that more men have heart attacks than women. But you failed to mention the laundry list of women related illnesses that men do not have at all. There are many, many more for women than men. Sorry, don't blame me.

As for insurance rates changing? I smoke what I smoke. I eat what I eat. I don't mind paying for that. It's the uncontrollables. And that's just one facet that this gay marriage touches upon. You could apply this to many different things, not just insurance. What about all the money it costs to re-legislate all this? It's not free and you and I are paying for it.

Respectfully, I just don't agree that you are a "Modern Man" if you are for all that stuff. I didn't even touch abortion, but I guess I should have since it was included in those 21st century qualities.

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Posted: 29 Nov 07, 13:41 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

But back to the topic:

School officials said the children proposed three names - Muhammad, Abdullah or Hassan - for the toy, then voted on Muhammad.


So what happens to those blasphemous little bastards? Especially the ones that voted on the winner.

Should've named him "Whitey".



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Posted: 29 Nov 07, 17:17 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

I've been following that story too, truly frightening, just read on Yahoo that she's been jailed officially for it now. Unbelievable. I wonder if the Jazz album had been released in today's current climate, would 'Mustapha' have landed Queen in trouble? Where will it all end?

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Posted: 29 Nov 07, 17:53 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Micrówave wrote:

Ok, then let me clarify.

Maggie, you said most women you know work right up until labor and are back soon after. Well, men don't have to worry about that. Plus, when the kid can't go to school, I would say Mom stays home more often than Dad.

You mentioned that more men have heart attacks than women. But you failed to mention the laundry list of women related illnesses that men do not have at all. There are many, many more for women than men. Sorry, don't blame me.

As for insurance rates changing? I smoke what I smoke. I eat what I eat. I don't mind paying for that. It's the uncontrollables. And that's just one facet that this gay marriage touches upon. You could apply this to many different things, not just insurance. What about all the money it costs to re-legislate all this? It's not free and you and I are paying for it.

Respectfully, I just don't agree that you are a "Modern Man" if you are for all that stuff. I didn't even touch abortion, but I guess I should have since it was included in those 21st century qualities.


Maybe women staying home more often than men was the way it was when you were little...heck, even when I was younger. But it's different now. There are SEVERAL male professors in the department here who stay home when their children are sick so their wives can work, and it's starting to be that way throughout all of society. Like it or not, society is changing. It's not the way it was when you were a little kid anymore.

OK...so there are diseases that women get that men don't. But for every one of those, there is one disease that men get that women don't. Hemophilia is typically a male disease, for example. Prostate cancer...the list goes on and on. So don't try to pull that card on me. And there are not MANY MANY more women than men. True, women are the majority, but not by a huge chunk. Besides, more women are the bread winners in families now because more women are graduating from university than men. (And no that isn't just a result of the population skew...the percentages of women and men who finish university are changing in respect to the amount of women and men there are).

So if you don't mind smoking what you smoke and eating what you eat, then where does your argument about paying for insurance rates come in? Last time I checked, the more people were a part of a system, the lower the costs in general because there are always healthy people with insurance who can pay when the insurance company has to pay out to cover someone who is ill. So if you open up the system to more people, then costs do not neccessarily rise.

Yes, it costs money to legislate this stuff, and you and I are paying for it. But we are paying for a shit ton of stuff we don't use (or wasted money). Again, it's part of being in a society. People who live in a city pay for millages that city charges them; those millages fund schools for the most part. Even people without children and with grown children who aren't a part of the system pay those millages. I could bring up TONS of shit we are paying for via the government at any level that we don't use or is being wasted, but I don't feel the need to list it all out right now.

Respectfully back to you, I am not saying you are not a modern man. Clearly you are, by the strictest sense of the world. What I would say you are is almost irresponsibly individualistic, an attitude that is commonly associated with the old west and frotier mentality. Well, there is no more frontier; for society to survive as a society, we must stick together and look out for others (also a common mentality in the old west I believe). Why you think it is fully ok to turn your back on others I do not know. You don't have to like them or approve of them, but it will not kill you to help them when they are down. They might just help you out in return someday.


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Posted: 30 Nov 07, 07:28 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Sir GH<br><h6>ah yeah</h6> wrote:

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/cbc/071128/world/world_bear_name

Unreal. We're in the 21st century, and someone is about to receive lashings and a jail sentence over philosophy. I fully realize how religion and culture are synonymous in some parts of the world, but that doesn't make it any less ludicrous.

Discuss.


They now say she'll spend 15 days in jail and then be deported. She's been spared the public lashing and 6-month jail term. Isn't that considerate of the authorities?

The more I hear about this "peaceful religion" (how's that for an oxymoron?), the more disgusted I am by it and its followers. This one commoner interviewed said, "We are a peaceful people, but the west must show respect for the prophet."

WTF?! How are they a 'peaceful people' when their first thoughts/actions for others involve torture? How is the west to respect their 'prophet' when they themselves have lost the right to be respected by not standing up in droves against this kind of attitude and action?
Respect? Yeah. Right. Don't hold your breath.



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Posted: 30 Nov 07, 08:00 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

magicalfreddiemercury wrote:

Sir GH<br><h6>ah yeah</h6> wrote:

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/cbc/071128/world/world_bear_name

Unreal. We're in the 21st century, and someone is about to receive lashings and a jail sentence over philosophy. I fully realize how religion and culture are synonymous in some parts of the world, but that doesn't make it any less ludicrous.

Discuss.


They now say she'll spend 15 days in jail and then be deported. She's been spared the public lashing and 6-month jail term. Isn't that considerate of the authorities?

The more I hear about this "peaceful religion" (how's that for an oxymoron?), the more disgusted I am by it and its followers. This one commoner interviewed said, "We are a peaceful people, but the west must show respect for the prophet."

WTF?! How are they a 'peaceful people' when their first thoughts/actions for others involve torture? How is the west to respect their 'prophet' when they themselves have lost the right to be respected by not standing up in droves against this kind of attitude and action?
Respect? Yeah. Right. Don't hold your breath.


As far as I'm aware this is part of a wider dispute between Sudan and GB and this woman is being used as a tool to get one over on Britain. This is an illogical attitude by the Sudanese and it has had some unfortunate blowback in making Islam look intolerant and backward.


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Posted: 30 Nov 07, 08:21 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Holly2003 wrote:


As far as I'm aware this is part of a wider dispute between Sudan and GB and this woman is being used as a tool to get one over on Britain. This is an illogical attitude by the Sudanese and it has had some unfortunate blowback in making Islam look intolerant and backward.


When you add this situation to the case of the Saudi woman who was raped and will now be imprisoned and whipped because of it, the young teen in... Iraq??? ...who was recently stoned to death by male village elders for some apparent infraction, and then add the lack of outcry from followers of this "peaceful religion" for the barbaric behavior, then islam looks intolerant and backward all on its own.

EDIT -

Here you go. Followers of tolerant islam speak out -

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071130/ap_on_re_af/sudan_british_teacher;_ylt=AuCegVd2HHw294mIUJUxjRVg.3QA

In case the link doesn't work - here's the article -

Calls in Sudan for execution of Briton By MOHAMED OSMAN, Associated Press Writer
4 minutes ago


KHARTOUM, Sudan - Thousands of Sudanese, many armed with clubs and knives, rallied Friday in a central square and demanded the execution of a British teacher convicted of insulting Islam for allowing her students to name a teddy bear "Muhammad."

The protesters streamed out of mosques after Friday sermons, as pickup trucks with loudspeakers blared messages against Gillian Gibbons, the teacher who was sentenced Thursday to 15 days in prison and deportation. She avoided the more serious punishment of 40 lashes.

They massed in central Martyrs Square, outside the presidential palace, where hundreds of riot police were deployed, although they did not try to stop the rally.

"Shame, shame on the U.K.," protesters chanted.

They called for Gibbons' execution, saying, "No tolerance: Execution," and "Kill her, kill her by firing squad."

The women's prison where Gibbons is being held is far from the site. Unity High School, which is closer by in central Khartoum, is under heavy security protection.

The protest arose despite vows by Sudanese security officials the day before, during Gibbons' trial, that threatened demonstrations after Friday prayers would not take place. Some of the protesters carried green banners with the name of the Society for Support of the Prophet Muhammad, a previously unknown group.

Many protesters carried clubs, knives and axes — but not automatic weapons, which some have brandished at past government-condoned demonstrations. That suggested Friday's rally was not organized by the government.

A Muslim cleric at Khartoum's main Martyrs Mosque denounced Gibbons during one sermon, saying she intentionally insulted Islam. He did not call for protests, however.

"Imprisoning this lady does not satisfy the thirst of Muslims in Sudan. But we welcome imprisonment and expulsion," the cleric, Abdul-Jalil Nazeer al-Karouri, a well-known hard-liner, told worshippers.

"This an arrogant woman who came to our country, cashing her salary in dollars, teaching our children hatred of our Prophet Muhammad," he said.

Britain, meanwhile, pursued diplomatic moves to free Gibbons. Prime Minister Gordon Brown spoke with a member of her family to convey his regret, his spokeswoman said.

"He set out his concern and the fact that we were doing all we could to secure her release," spokeswoman Emily Hands told reporters.

Most Britons expressed shock at the verdict by a court in Khartoum, alongside hope it would not raise tensions between Muslims and non-Muslims in Britain.

"One of the good things is the U.K. Muslims who've condemned the charge as completely out of proportion," said Paul Wishart, 37, a student in London.

"In the past, people have been a bit upset when different atrocities have happened and there hasn't been much voice in the U.K. Islam


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Posted: 30 Nov 07, 10:08 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

With both of my children I worked right up until the day when it was "time." In fact, with Cameron, I worked a double the day before! I had 17 days off with her bc at the time I was waiting tables. With Anthony I had 8 weeks of paid time off bc I had saved up my vacation days. I didn't get a maternity leave, I saved and saved and prepared and prepared so that I could be with him. When my kids are sick, yes I am the one that stays home with them bc I am their mother, but I also have benefits with my job, sick days, personal days, vacation days, etc. My children will always come before work although I know I must have a paycheck to support them but it all balances out quite nicely for me. I am lucky, I work hard and I reap the benefits.

Insurance rates are going to go up regardless and insurance companies are going to use any excuse they can to blame the rise.

A few years ago, I paid zilch for health insurance. I am a State employee through the school system. Now I pay four times zilch out of my paycheck plus higher co-pays, higher prescription costs, and now I have a deductible if I ever have to go in the hospital!!!! I've NEVER had a deductible before!!! But there is nothing I can do about it, I pay it and I work and I take care of my children.

Did I have sex before marriage? Absoultely. Do I regret it, not really, well some of it.

I hate to complain and I really don't have anything to complain about but I just want to make sure that you know Microwave, why I choose to stay home with my children when they are sick and that you are not paying for it when I do and you are also not paying for me having had a maternity leave. I earned it and I paid for it.

Carry on.


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Posted: 30 Nov 07, 14:30 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

1. Why should a teacher be held responsible for what Muslim children call a toy? As I understand it, she didn't propose the candidates, she didn't cast a vote, she just acted as a returning officer. If the prophet's name is so sacred, shouldn't 30 sets of parents be currently facing the same punishment for failing to pass on Muslim law to their children?

2. If it's such a sacred name, why the fuck are so many people called it? One kid was quoted as saying "I voted for Mohammed as that's my name"...

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Posted: 30 Nov 07, 14:32 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Magical,
I normally agree with a lot of what you say, but I have to depart on the attitude you seem to be taking with all Muslims. You seem to forget that what we see is the result of radical Islamics (Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Iran....all are run by hard line radical Islamic governments). These no more characterize all of Islam than the Jerry Farwells of the world represent Christianity. Just like any other religion, it has it's nuts. Unfortunately, just like Christianity, it's the loudest nuts that get all of the attention. However, it is inherently flawed to assume that all followers of that general religion are characterized by the nuts. I'd argue that all of this is just a danger with religion in general, but I'd probably be massacred by the religious people on the thread.



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Posted: 30 Nov 07, 14:38 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Send in the RAF and bomb 'em back to the Stone Age.


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Posted: 30 Nov 07, 14:45 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Bob The Shrek wrote:

Send in the RAF and bomb 'em back to the Stone Age.


But I'm against wars... :(

Oh, wait. You must be talking about the other RAF...


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