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Another Roger (re) user not visiting Queenzone.com

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Posted: 08 Dec 07, 10:57 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Alright. Let a few things be clear first:

1. Freddie Mercury had the most fantastic voice ever.
2. He was the greatest showman ever
3. He was a great composer in the 70s.

Now then. According to a lot of people Freddie was Queen. Those of us who know Queen know better than that. But even in the Queenfan environment I find that Freddie Mercury is slightly overrated.

Some tend to think he invented the Queen sound. I dont agree there. Freddie was a big fan of Smile before he became a member of the band that was going to be Queen later on. Those who have heard smiles harmonies will instantly hear the similarites. Doing alright, and April Lady are good examples. If Freddie was Queen, how come he didnt make Ibex or wreckage big stars? Simply because he didnt have any clever bandmembers to help him through. Freddie helped Brian and Roger too. He brought the show and camp to the band.

Lets look at Queen1. Who wrote the songs?

Keep yourself Alive - Brian May
Doing Alright - Brian May/Staffel
Son and Daughter - Brian May
The Night Comes Down - Brian May

Liar - Freddie Mercury
Great King Rat - Freddie Mercury
Jesus - Freddie Mercury
My Fairy King - Freddie Mercury
Seven seas doesnt count in Queen1. Only as an instruental...

Modern Times - Roger Taylor

I prefer Brian Mays tracks on Queen1. To me they are very solid. Freddie was cleary in a learning period as his songs were kinda experimental. But i dont think he succeed on Queen1. Except my Fairy King that is very good. Jesus I dont rate very highly I am afraid.

Queen2
Freddie wrote: Fairy feller, Ogre Battle, Funny how love is, Seven Seas of Rhye, nevermore, march of the black Queen.

Brian May: Father to son, White Queen, Some day one day.

Freddie win on this one of course. His peak as a songwriter in my opinion. Brian May was solid as usual but contributed with less songs

The 70s continue a little like this. Brian May and Freddie Mercury dominating the albums while Roger Taylor and John Deacon make one or two each.

After Jazz something happens. Freddie gets lazy. He will never return to the capacity he had in the 70s. In the 80s Queen were saved by the other members. He had a few glimpses of quality with Its a hard life, The Miracle and Play the game. Other than that we got stuff like Body Language, Man on The Prowl, Stayin Power, Coolcat, Keep passing the open windows, Delilah etc. In my opinion quite weak stuff. Brian May, Roger Taylor and John Deacon rose to the occasion and saved Queen with some big singles. Without those I fear Queen would have been over a lot earlier.

Brian May was in my opinion the most consistent writer in Queen. While Freddie had most creative and wild ideas you could always count on Brian. Freddie was too fond of the partylife in the 80s. I dont blame him.

Freddie can take credit for a lot. But he certainly wasnt Queen alone. In that sense I would call him overrated by many.




Basically blind em and deaf em in the first 10 minutes, and while they are recovering from that put in the less good songs
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Posted: 08 Dec 07, 13:44 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Well, you talk about songwriting. You forget about the solo stuff for example, Freddie was not lazy in the 80's.

And you forget about playing live! Freddie was one of the most complete and fascinating singers and entertainers ever. There is much more about being a successful band than just songwriting alone.

If I think of INXS for example ... maybe not perfect comparison, ok, but Michael Hutchence was a good frontman for them, he wasn't the main songwriter, but anyway INXS are not the same without him!

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Posted: 08 Dec 07, 15:06 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

"And you forget about playing live! Freddie was one of the most complete and fascinating singers and entertainers ever. There is much more about being a successful band than just songwriting alone."

Ehhh. Did you read my post? I actually did say that Freddie was a great showman and a good singer. Read the post again please....Of course he was a good singer and a great showman





Basically blind em and deaf em in the first 10 minutes, and while they are recovering from that put in the less good songs
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Posted: 08 Dec 07, 16:32 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

> 3. He was a great composer in the 70s.

And in the 80's too.

> But even in the Queenfan environment I find that Freddie Mercury is slightly overrated.

Everybody is.

> Some tend to think he invented the Queen sound.

Certainly not.

> Those who have heard smiles harmonies will instantly hear the similarites.

Not even Smile: check 1984 - the idea was already there.

> He brought the show and camp to the band.

He did much more than that.

> I prefer Brian Mays tracks on Queen1. To me they are very solid. Freddie was cleary in a learning period as his songs were kinda experimental.

Yes and no ... in musical terms, Freddie's music was much more advanced than Brian's. Albums had a great combination anyway ... there was always a KYA to compensate the MFK, and so on.

> He had a few glimpses of quality with Its a hard life, The Miracle and Play the game.

And Princes of the Universe, and Was It All Worth It, and Innuendo, and Slightly Mad ...

> In my opinion quite weak stuff.

Sure enough (although I disagree with some), but it happened to all of them: Dancer, Rain Must Fall, Invisible Man...

> While Freddie had most creative and wild ideas you could always count on Brian.

That is true indeed.

> Freddie can take credit for a lot. But he certainly wasnt Queen alone. In that sense I would call him overrated by many.

Of course he wasn't Queen alone. Roger + Brian aren't Queen either.

> You forget about the solo stuff for example, Freddie was not lazy in the 80's.

Perhaps not lazy, but certainly not as professional as he'd been in the 70's (except for 'Barcelona' and the last Queen albums). It's hard to believe that the same man who wrote 'Black Queen' wrote 'Body Language'...

> Freddie was one of the most complete and fascinating singers

Yes, but in the studio. On stage Fred was a showman, in the studio Fred was a musician.


John hated HS. Fred's fave singer was not PR. Roger didn't compose 'Innuendo.' Witness testimonies are often inaccurate. Scotland's not in England. 'Bo Rhap' hasn't got 180 voices.
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Posted: 08 Dec 07, 16:35 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Hmmmmmm sorry but Freddie and word LAZY do not come together anywayXD

Yeah Brian did a big part in songwriting of "Queen", but i donnow.. Maybe that's also a deal of a taste? I personally prefer Freddie's songs. "Don't stop me now", "Killer Queen", "Crazy little thing called love", "Bicycle race", "You take my breath away".. What i love about Freddie's songs is that lyrics and issue fits so much to the melody!Though he once said he hates writing lyrics, i love his lyrics best, those are simple, witty and smart:>

And i guess, about the Queen songs in general, the very best hits came when the whole band took part in creating the song.

PS<sorry for my messy english>

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Posted: 08 Dec 07, 17:24 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

I respect your opinions sebatian. I will get back with a proper reply tomorrow. Now I am drunk. And Freddie was of course awsome :)




Basically blind em and deaf em in the first 10 minutes, and while they are recovering from that put in the less good songs
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Posted: 08 Dec 07, 17:45 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

"Yeah Brian did a big part in songwriting of "Queen", but i donnow.. Maybe that's also a deal of a taste? I personally prefer Freddie's songs. "Don't stop me now", "Killer Queen", "Crazy little thing called love", "Bicycle race", "You take my breath away".. What i love about Freddie's songs is that lyrics and issue fits so much to the melody!Though he once said he hates writing lyrics, i love his lyrics best, those are simple, witty and smart:>"

All the songs you mention were written in the 70s. So you support my point really. And I agree that they were good songs.



Basically blind em and deaf em in the first 10 minutes, and while they are recovering from that put in the less good songs
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Posted: 08 Dec 07, 17:52 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

I'm drunk too, but I'll take a shot at this, because I agree with all points in the initial post.

Let's examine the singles written by Freddie in the 80's:

1980 Play The Game - A dull, predictable song. Freddie should've given it away to the Gibb brothers
1982 Body Language - Seriously? This from the man who wrote "Bohemian Rhapsody" and "Killer Queen"???
1984 It's A Hard Life - If "Play the Game" wasn't torture enough, here comes the sequel. Lyrically it sounds more like a teen girl's poetry.
1986 Friends Will Be Friends - Co-written with John. Expected to be the next "We Are The Champions", but failed miserably on that account.
1989 The Miracle - Credited to Freddie, but I think that Brian had a lot more to do with it than he would admit. Even so, a good song that lacks punch. Certainly Freddie's best single in the 80's.

Am I being too harsh? Perhaps. But if you look at the singles the other bandmembers produced in the 80's you'll see that I'm right. Freddie lost something when he grew the 'tache.

By saying that he was overrated I don't mean that he wasn't that great. I'm saying that Brian, Roger and John a greatly UNDERrated, and that goes double for Brian May, because as the topic starter said, he was the most consistent song-writer. He didn't write any No. 1 hits (unless you count that excuse for a single with 5ive), but he wrote a lot of good stuff and most of it memorable.

V.



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Posted: 08 Dec 07, 18:02 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Well unfortunately i didn't know those songs were written in the seventies.


Hmmmm strange, i really appreciate "It's a hard life" and "Play the game" - when i just got to know "It's a hard life", i was addicted to this song for some time. Yeah i can agree it's really girlish. As for "Play the game"-for me it's another simple, but genious song:]

"The miracle" is perfect.

ANd as for "Body language", you know, it's OK to have a not-very-creative period in time, this is a boring song but for me that would be strange if Freddie would always be extremely productive and writing songs of same quality...



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Posted: 08 Dec 07, 22:56 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

I am afraid this may come across as elitist, but I am always amazed when people say they don't know much about Queen in the 70's...it really is a testament to Queen's enduring greatness...as well as how old I am becoming. I was sure I was going to be angry when I read this post, but many of the points are well taken. I find myself asking "if Fredie were still alive, would I be this critical?" because the natural tendency is to want to make him saint because he has tragically passed on, but the truth is Freddie's song writing in most of the eighties wasn't really as good as his previous work. Having said that, a lot of his songs and contribuions for Inuendo and their last album were very good, in my humble opinion. I wouldn't say he was over-rated so much as (considering he was the lead singer and often the focal point) as much as sadly missed.


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Posted: 08 Dec 07, 23:11 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Another Roger (re) wrote:

Alright. Let a few things be clear first:

1. Freddie Mercury had the most fantastic voice ever.
2. He was the greatest showman ever
3. He was a great composer in the 70s.

Now then. According to a lot of people Freddie was Queen. Those of us who know Queen know better than that. But even in the Queenfan environment I find that Freddie Mercury is slightly overrated.

Some tend to think he invented the Queen sound. I dont agree there. Freddie was a big fan of Smile before he became a member of the band that was going to be Queen later on. Those who have heard smiles harmonies will instantly hear the similarites. Doing alright, and April Lady are good examples. If Freddie was Queen, how come he didnt make Ibex or wreckage big stars? Simply because he didnt have any clever bandmembers to help him through. Freddie helped Brian and Roger too. He brought the show and camp to the band.

Lets look at Queen1. Who wrote the songs?

Keep yourself Alive - Brian May
Doing Alright - Brian May/Staffel
Son and Daughter - Brian May
The Night Comes Down - Brian May

Liar - Freddie Mercury
Great King Rat - Freddie Mercury
Jesus - Freddie Mercury
My Fairy King - Freddie Mercury
Seven seas doesnt count in Queen1. Only as an instruental...

Modern Times - Roger Taylor

I prefer Brian Mays tracks on Queen1. To me they are very solid. Freddie was cleary in a learning period as his songs were kinda experimental. But i dont think he succeed on Queen1. Except my Fairy King that is very good. Jesus I dont rate very highly I am afraid.

Queen2
Freddie wrote: Fairy feller, Ogre Battle, Funny how love is, Seven Seas of Rhye, nevermore, march of the black Queen.

Brian May: Father to son, White Queen, Some day one day.

Freddie win on this one of course. His peak as a songwriter in my opinion. Brian May was solid as usual but contributed with less songs

The 70s continue a little like this. Brian May and Freddie Mercury dominating the albums while Roger Taylor and John Deacon make one or two each.

After Jazz something happens. Freddie gets lazy. He will never return to the capacity he had in the 70s. In the 80s Queen were saved by the other members. He had a few glimpses of quality with Its a hard life, The Miracle and Play the game. Other than that we got stuff like Body Language, Man on The Prowl, Stayin Power, Coolcat, Keep passing the open windows, Delilah etc. In my opinion quite weak stuff. Brian May, Roger Taylor and John Deacon rose to the occasion and saved Queen with some big singles. Without those I fear Queen would have been over a lot earlier.

Brian May was in my opinion the most consistent writer in Queen. While Freddie had most creative and wild ideas you could always count on Brian. Freddie was too fond of the partylife in the 80s. I dont blame him.

Freddie can take credit for a lot. But he certainly wasnt Queen alone. In that sense I would call him overrated by many.



I thought he was a great composer in the 80s and 90s as well. Guess that's my mistake.


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Posted: 09 Dec 07, 05:29 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

bigV wrote:


Am I being too harsh? Perhaps. But if you look at the singles the other bandmembers produced in the 80's you'll see that I'm right. Freddie lost something when he grew the 'tache.

By saying that he was overrated I don't mean that he wasn't that great. I'm saying that Brian, Roger and John a greatly UNDERrated, and that goes double for Brian May, because as the topic starter said, he was the most consistent song-writer. He didn't write any No. 1 hits (unless you count that excuse for a single with 5ive), but he wrote a lot of good stuff and most of it memorable.

V.


Really?

John wrote consistently average singles all throughout the band's career, but they just happened to sell quite well.

Roger's first song deemed good enough for a single release was Radio Ga Ga... And even that wouldn't have been released unless the other members had lowered the quality of their own output.
I think that sums up his writing career. ;)

Brian on the other hand... In the 70's we got Keep Yourself Alive, Now I'm Here, Tie Your Mother Down and Save Me... In the 80's we got Flash's Theme, Las Palabras De Amor, Hammer To Fall, Who Wants To Live Forever and I Want It All.

Doesn't that really suggest that the writing of EVERY band member was going equally down toilet in the 80's? (At least in the "Hard rock" sense which some people here are equating the glory days of Queen with.)

(And don't talk of consistently good sonqwriters whose repertuare in the 80's includes such gems Put Out The Fire, Tear It Up and Gimme The Prize)

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Posted: 09 Dec 07, 05:54 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

tero, you just stole my thunder. how could you do that to me?....anyway, brian Consistent?...I must disagree. like tero said, songs like put out the fire, tear it up, and gimme the prize isn't exactly great rock songs. Freddie overated?...how is that?...his songwriting went down hill for a few years, then came roaring back with barcelona and innuendo. Barcelona is more original than anything brian and roger ever did. Freddie's style was what seperated queen from other bands. Let's face it, as great as tie your mother down is, it's not as original as a freddie song. that's a fact.

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Posted: 09 Dec 07, 05:55 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

I do agree that the other members should get their due respect, and i don't agree that John wrote average singles. spread your wings, you and I, and your my best friend are all solid. I also think brian gets plenty of respect these days, but I think the red special is a bit overated by queen fans.

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Posted: 09 Dec 07, 06:05 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Put Out The Fire - When you look at it in the context of "Hot Space" it suddenly becomes an entirely different song. Seriously, it was one of three really good songs on that album (the other two being "Under Pressure" and "Las Palabras").
Tear It Up - An attempt to re-create WWRY. Not a very good one, I'll grant you that.
Gimme The Prize - A song I happen to like.

And anyway, you've just proved my point. It's not that Freddie was overrated, it's that Brian, Roger and John were underrated. I just gave an example with Brian, because he's my favourite member of the band. Don't cling to minutiae.

V.




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Posted: 09 Dec 07, 06:09 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

> Yeah Brian did a big part in songwriting of "Queen", but i donnow.. Maybe that's also a deal of a taste?

Yes and no... some things are of course subjective (some people would prefer 'Ga Ga' to 'Bo Rhap', for instance), some aren't.

> 1989 The Miracle - Credited to Freddie, but I think that Brian had a lot more to do with it than he would admit.

At least in musical terms, it's got Freddie's fingerprints all over. Brian (and Roger and John) of course had lyrical input.

> ANd as for "Body language", you know, it's OK to have a not-very-creative period in time

Actually, 'Body Language' isn't THAT disposable, it's got some clever bits (in the songwriting department).

> Roger's first song deemed good enough for a single release was Radio Ga Ga... And even that wouldn't have been released unless the other members had lowered the quality of their own output.

And it wouldn't have been released if Freddie hadn't arranged it. I guess that, had 'Ga Ga' been a Deacon song, it'd have been co-credited to Mercury (like 'Pain is So Close' and 'Friends').

> Doesn't that really suggest that the writing of EVERY band member was going equally down toilet in the 80's?

Exactly. Dr May had some great moments in the 80's (like '...Forever'), but most of the time he wrote sub-average things compared to his 70's output. Compare 'Las Palabras' with 'White Queen' or 'Tear It Up' with 'Prophet's Song'... enough said.


John hated HS. Fred's fave singer was not PR. Roger didn't compose 'Innuendo.' Witness testimonies are often inaccurate. Scotland's not in England. 'Bo Rhap' hasn't got 180 voices.
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Posted: 09 Dec 07, 06:17 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

bigV wrote:


And anyway, you've just proved my point. It's not that Freddie was overrated, it's that Brian, Roger and John were underrated. I just gave an example with Brian, because he's my favourite member of the band. Don't cling to minutiae.

V.



Actually... No.

Your point was that Freddie was overrated in the 80's, while my point was that they were all similarily overrated in the 80's (or just as good as always, depending on your viewpoint.)

You said Brian was consistent throughout the 70's and 80's unlike Freddie, and I pointed out they were both just as inconsistent.

Please don't try to turn your Brian-lovefest into objective analysis of the band's writing capabilities. ;)

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Posted: 09 Dec 07, 07:50 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Tero wrote:

bigV wrote:


And anyway, you've just proved my point. It's not that Freddie was overrated, it's that Brian, Roger and John were underrated. I just gave an example with Brian, because he's my favourite member of the band. Don't cling to minutiae.

V.



Actually... No.

Your point was that Freddie was overrated in the 80's, while my point was that they were all similarily overrated in the 80's (or just as good as always, depending on your viewpoint.)

You said Brian was consistent throughout the 70's and 80's unlike Freddie, and I pointed out they were both just as inconsistent.

Please don't try to turn your Brian-lovefest into objective analysis of the band's writing capabilities. ;)


Touche! :)

V.



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Posted: 10 Dec 07, 01:37 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

bigV wrote:

I'm drunk too, but I'll take a shot at this, because I agree with all points in the initial post.

Let's examine the singles written by Freddie in the 80's:

1980 Play The Game - A dull, predictable song. Freddie should've given it away to the Gibb brothers
1982 Body Language - Seriously? This from the man who wrote "Bohemian Rhapsody" and "Killer Queen"???
1984 It's A Hard Life - If "Play the Game" wasn't torture enough, here comes the sequel. Lyrically it sounds more like a teen girl's poetry.
1986 Friends Will Be Friends - Co-written with John. Expected to be the next "We Are The Champions", but failed miserably on that account.
1989 The Miracle - Credited to Freddie, but I think that Brian had a lot more to do with it than he would admit. Even so, a good song that lacks punch. Certainly Freddie's best single in the 80's.

Am I being too harsh? Perhaps. But if you look at the singles the other bandmembers produced in the 80's you'll see that I'm right. Freddie lost something when he grew the 'tache.

By saying that he was overrated I don't mean that he wasn't that great. I'm saying that Brian, Roger and John a greatly UNDERrated, and that goes double for Brian May, because as the topic starter said, he was the most consistent song-writer. He didn't write any No. 1 hits (unless you count that excuse for a single with 5ive), but he wrote a lot of good stuff and most of it memorable.

V.
oh please, play the game, and especially it's a hard life were awsome. As for body language, at least freddie was trying something different. Brian on the other hand was so predictable with put out the fire and tear it up. My favorite songs on hot space were the disco funk tunes like staying power and dancer, back chat and cool cat. Put out the fire was brian trying to hard to sound like queen. This is not to put down brian, he was awsome (not now). My only point is that he wasn't consistent like you say.

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Posted: 10 Dec 07, 04:02 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

I love everything Freddie wrote in the seventies, but absolutely NOTHING he wrote in the eighties. All his songs on Hot Space/The Works/A Kind Of Magic are terrible, Mr. Bad Guy is one of the crappiest albums in history of modern music, only the remixes of its songs are listenable.
Barcelona is after a long time something good, but I guess it's because he didn't write the songs alone, and / or he knew his end is near, so he tried to write stuff which was as good as possible. The same goes for songs from The Miracle and Innuendo (except Delilah).

As I wrote above, I LOVE everything written by Freddie in the seventies, with two exceptions - Good Old Fashioned Lover Boy and Get Down Make Love.

Brian on the other hand did NEVER write a song, which I wouldn't like.