Forums > Personal > Mothers and children in polygamist case to be separated

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mystic_rhythms user not visiting Queenzone.com

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Posted: 19 Apr 08, 19:23 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080419/ap_on_re_us/polygamist_retreat;_ylt=AlPTx2CGoR0ToDaCSDJ6xuRH2ocA

So the judge ruled that the children stay in custody of the court.

Finally, this whole shameful debacle can be put to rest.
*sigh*...only in Texas lol

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Posted: 19 Apr 08, 20:40 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

mystic_rhythms wrote:



Finally, this whole shameful debacle can be put to rest.
*sigh*...only in Texas lol

-=Brian=-


I'm afraid this won't put anything to rest. It's only the beginning. Those children will need years of therapy - as will the young mothers (also children). The state will have to pay for all of it, and will have to determine paternity of those children since most of the mothers were underage when they had them. I'm sorry to say, this isn't even close to being put to rest.



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Posted: 19 Apr 08, 23:26 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Indeed...this is going to be a mess that is going to take YEARS just to figure out. Never mind providing the therapy and de-programing it's going to take to orient these women and children back into society. This is going to be a giant mess that is likely will never be solved completely.


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Posted: 20 Apr 08, 00:37 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote


There is going a long,hard road and I pity the children.

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Posted: 20 Apr 08, 06:42 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

It's interesting how citizen rights are defined in various countries. In Germany and many other European countries you cannot isolate your children from the community. When you move to a new place you have to register as a citizen of the new community, you have to send your children to a school that is approved by the community. You even need to go through a legal procedure if you want to build a house because everything is regulated and legally supervised. On the other hand we have more rights with regards to police. A house can only be raided by armed officers when there is a public danger (terrorist attack) or the life of a citizen is in actual danger. In all other cases the police needs a written order by a judge in order to enter your home. You cannot be taken into custody without an arrest and without the chance to call a lawyer to support you.

Parents have the most natural claim of their children and the right to raise them as they see fit. But it cannot be right that parents isolate their children from the society they live in to follow some strange cult and even to sexually abuse them routinely.


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Posted: 20 Apr 08, 06:46 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

YourValentine wrote:

It's interesting how citizen rights are defined in various countries. In Germany and many other European countries you cannot isolate your children from the community. When you move to a new place you have to register as a citizen of the new community, you have to send your children to a school that is approved by the community. You even need to go through a legal procedure if you want to build a house because everything is regulated and legally supervised. On the other hand we have more rights with regards to police. A house can only be raided by armed officers when there is a public danger (terrorist attack) or the life of a citizen is in actual danger. In all other cases the police needs a written order by a judge in order to enter your home. You cannot be taken into custody without an arrest and without the chance to call a lawyer to support you.

Parents have the most natural claim of their children and the right to raise them as they see fit. But it cannot be right that parents isolate their children from the society they live in to follow some strange cult and even to sexually abuse them routinely.


It's the same here in the USA, it's big trouble if your children don't attend school if they are under the age 16. I don't know how some people do it. You have to register as a citizin in any city or town or village you live in, in the USA too.


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Posted: 20 Apr 08, 07:09 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Jacob Britt wrote:

YourValentine wrote:

It's interesting how citizen rights are defined in various countries. In Germany and many other European countries you cannot isolate your children from the community. When you move to a new place you have to register as a citizen of the new community, you have to send your children to a school that is approved by the community. You even need to go through a legal procedure if you want to build a house because everything is regulated and legally supervised. On the other hand we have more rights with regards to police. A house can only be raided by armed officers when there is a public danger (terrorist attack) or the life of a citizen is in actual danger. In all other cases the police needs a written order by a judge in order to enter your home. You cannot be taken into custody without an arrest and without the chance to call a lawyer to support you.

Parents have the most natural claim of their children and the right to raise them as they see fit. But it cannot be right that parents isolate their children from the society they live in to follow some strange cult and even to sexually abuse them routinely.


It's the same here in the USA, it's big trouble if your children don't attend school if they are under the age 16. I don't know how some people do it. You have to register as a citizin in any city or town or village you live in, in the USA too.


Religious freedom trumps everything else, it seems. This cult bought acres and built a soaring temple. Immediately, they and theirs were off limits. Raiding them - despite probable cause - is against the law because it infringes on the group's religious beliefs.

In this case, a 16 year old is said to have called police saying she'd been forced to marry a 50 year old man who then beat and raped her. Her child, it's said, was born when the girl was just 15. They have yet to find this girl and there are now accusations that police and Child Protective Services (CPS) fabricated the entire story in order to justify the raid. If this girl is not located or if the accusations are proven accurate, this whole case is destroyed. They cannot investigate anything because it was all uncovered illegally. That means the children will go back to their families and the families will no doubt go back to their abusive practices. Not only will the state be unable to stop it, but it will no doubt be sued by the 'church' for millions of dollars in damages. And win.

The worst part is that these kids have been told contact with the outside world will damn their souls for all eternity. I'm glad they're separated from family so the healing process can begin, but I'm so sad for them, too. The terror they must be experiencing is too great to imagine.

There are so many people in various communities ready to adopt those children should it come to that. It's heartwarming to see the outpouring of love, but I wonder why it happens only when things get as bad as this.



"The others don't like my interviews. And frankly, I don't care much for theirs." ~ Freddie Mercury



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Posted: 20 Apr 08, 10:14 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

yeah, you're right. This is just the tip of the iceberg.

I meant that the major court case is over. And a crazy one at that.

Imagine this: hundreds of lawyers, a courtroom jampacked with litigators and spectators, dozens of reporters camped outside...I'm surprised the judge didn't commit herself to the local mental asylum. I would have lol

-=Brian=-


We can only grow the way the wind blows

On a bare and weathered shore

We can only bow to the here and now

In our elemental war

- Rush, "The Way The Wind Blows"
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Posted: 20 Apr 08, 10:30 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

I am all for religious freedom but even religious schools must be supervised by the state. It cannot be that there are parallel socities and children are alienated from the society they will spend their whole life in. Parents can get involved in any school by being a member of parent advisory boards or parent committees but to let a cult remove their kids from the normal education system and let them isolate the kids from normal contact with people of other belief is very hurtful for the development of children and should not be tolerated. Now the damage is so much worse and now the jurisdiction has to deal with problems that could have been easily avoided.


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Posted: 20 Apr 08, 11:50 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

The Amish live in their own communities, have their own schools, laws and medicine. Their children are raised in that society without interaction (or much, anyway) with the rest of society. It seems it's the same for this perversion of the Mormon faith (not saying the Amish are perverse in any way), just closed off from the rest of society.

Children do have to be registered with the school districts in which they live, but do not have to be registered in a school. Like my daughter - who is homeschooled. They really have no idea what, if anything, I'm teaching her. But parents have first right over their kids unless there is proof of misdeeds and the process to expose those misdeeds is carried out legally. This raid may not have been legal and so the rest of the case(s) may have to be dropped.



"The others don't like my interviews. And frankly, I don't care much for theirs." ~ Freddie Mercury



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Posted: 20 Apr 08, 13:06 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

This is a very unique case. Magical is right. Because of the number of private schools, charter schools, colloqiual schools and the option of home schooling in the US, children do not have to be in a public school. But they do have to be registered. Typically, communities like this will either build their own schools or home-school their children. Usually this means that the school cirriculum which the schools provide to the state have to match the basic standards of state public schools, but these are pretty low and once you meet these basic requirements anything else is fair game for being taught.

Because this is a religious community, the government is hands off; more so than an ordinary citizen. The government ideas that Barb talks about happen in the US to when a normal citizen with children were to withdraw from the community. But when a community has separated itself and registered as a religious community, the government's hands are tied. In this case, the government cannot do anything at all until they get a warrant, which in a religious community means the complaint has to come from the inside. Complaints from the outside mean essentially squat. Now once they get a warrant to search the community (again, must be based on a credible complaint from the inside of the community) they can go in just like anywhere else. (They also need a warrant to go into a regular house BTW)

The authorities were well aware of this community...they had been watching it for two years. They knew that illegal activity (polygamy and underage marriages) was going on, but they could not do anything about it since it was a religious community and they could not go in until there was a complaint from the inside. This call from the girl was what they needed to be able to get a warrant to get in. Now that they've found underage girls who are pregnant, there is clearly illegal activity going on. But if they can't find the girl who made the call or find out it was faked, even though they have clear evidence of something illegal taking place, nothing can be done because the warrant was invalid.


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Posted: 20 Apr 08, 14:26 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

This is just too depressing..
I first heard about polygamy when Warren Jeffs was featured on America's Most Wanted. I couldn't believe other girls were forced to marry at such a young age!!! It just goes to show how ignorant I was.
I can't say much about this particular case. I just hope everything works out for these families and I hope the girl who called is safe. I hope they find her.


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Posted: 20 Apr 08, 14:40 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

I understand that the state could not do anything about the polygamy and underaged marriages (which are probably not legal, anyway), they can hardly spy into private bedrooms. I don't understsand how a religious cult can separate itself from a community to an extent that children are not registered in their local community (i.e. getting a birth certificate with date of birth, name, name of parents) and do not get a part of the community automatically including infancy health care and other benefits.


I know about the Amish but in Germany their schools would be subject to state control, all schools must fulfill certain criteria even though a religious school may put more emphasis on religious education. If the school does not comply the children must attend a state school, that's the law. Home schooling is not an option. I know that magical home schools her daughter and one of our former QZ chat room operators was home schooled, so it's probably okay when the parents are open minded and provide for intellectual variety but basically a child needs the school as a place of social learning as much as for aquiring knowledge. Certainly a religious cult should not have this option.


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Posted: 20 Apr 08, 16:18 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

I fully agree with you. There was a woman who works at the bakery I used to work at, and she "home schooled" her daughters. But soon she ran out of time to do it, so she put her daughters into public schools. Well, that wound up being a giant mess because the girls had to be started 2 grades back because the mother had not taught them anything other than "arts and crafts" time and the youngest daughter couldn't even read. Not to mention the socialization trouble those children hand....Home schooling is not necessarily a bad option, if the parents are qualified to be able to teach. But if they aren't...well, the apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

To be honest I'm not sure how these groups operate as far as birth and things. If these children are born on the cult grounds in their own medical center (a distinct possibility) then they wouldn't ever be registered with the government at all in all likelihood. If they are born at an outside hospital, they are given a birth certificate and what not, but you don't have to put the name of the father on the certificate if you do not tell them who it is; that is one of the problems they are dealing with right now with all of these children...they can't figure out who belongs to who.

Religious liberty is the freedom that is most strongly identified with in the US, especially by the fathers of the country. They purposely gave groups all of these rights because they were all about religious liberty. As this case demonstrates, it does certainly have its problems. But there is no way any lawmaker in the US would try to create laws that would trample religious liberty...their political career would be very short and ineffective.

Everything this group does is illegal. Polygamy is illegal in all 50 states, US territories and at the Federal level. Texas even changed their marriage laws so that no one under the age of 16 can get married even WITH parental consent as a direct result of this sect. So underage marriages are all illegal. But because this is a recognized religious group, they are given the freedom to do whatever they want until they either become a direct threat to the outside community (killing people who live around them or something like that) or there is a complaint made from inside. I hope they find the girl who made the call, but I have a bad feeling she won't show herself to authorities, and the whole case will fall apart.


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Posted: 20 Apr 08, 18:40 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

As for homeschooling... ;-)

Each state has its own regulations. New York is one of the tougher states. We have to report to the district several times during the course of a school year. And there are standardized tests every other year the children have to take. If they fail to show grade level advancements, the process is put on probation and they must follow through with evaluations.

It is not that way in many other states - most especially not in the Bible Belt, of which Texas is a part. Their homeschooling options are more lenient and religiously based. It's not uncommon for families to remove their children from school specifically for religious reasons. In fact, that's why when most people hear about homeschooling, they automatically cringe, thinking you want to isolate your child the way many of the bible belt people seem to do.

As for socialization... in schools it's not exactly ideal. When a child is properly homeschooled, their socialization skills improve dramatically over their public-schooled peers. They interact with a variety of people of all ages and abilities. Many homeschooled children volunteer at various places of business and must learn to communicate properly - with courtesy, intelligence and professionalism. Socialization in schools is hardly courteous, sometimes intelligent and rarely, if ever, professional.

I know that was off topic, but I had to get it in there. Hijack over. :-)




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Posted: 20 Apr 08, 18:44 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

magicalfreddiemercury wrote:

As for homeschooling... ;-)

Each state has its own regulations. New York is one of the tougher states. We have to report to the district several times during the course of a school year. And there are standardized tests every other year the children have to take. If they fail to show grade level advancements, the process is put on probation and they must follow through with evaluations.

It is not that way in many other states - most especially not in the Bible Belt, of which Texas is a part. Their homeschooling options are more lenient and religiously based. It's not uncommon for families to remove their children from school specifically for religious reasons. In fact, that's why when most people hear about homeschooling, they automatically cringe, thinking you want to isolate your child the way many of the bible belt people seem to do.

As for socialization... in schools it's not exactly ideal. When a child is properly homeschooled, their socialization skills improve dramatically over their public-schooled peers. They interact with a variety of people of all ages and abilities. Many homeschooled children volunteer at various places of business and must learn to communicate properly - with courtesy, intelligence and professionalism. Socialization in schools is hardly courteous, sometimes intelligent and rarely, if ever, professional.

I know that was off topic, but i had to get it in there. Hijack over. :-)




I know several children that are currently being homeschooled and they are very bright and well spoken, and very outgoing and social. They are involved in social activities with other homeschooled children and I believe this experience has enriched their lives. I don't know how many of you remember Miss James who was a long term member here, but she was homeschooled and today she is a bright, articulate, intelligent young woman and doing very well in life.

:-)


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Posted: 20 Apr 08, 20:38 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Indeed Magical and Janet! Homes chooling can be a wonderful thing. Even though I do not have children yet, I can tell you after teaching the products of our public schools for the last two years, the option of home-schooling any children I have is starting to look darn good! At least I could ensure they are safe, getting a good education and getting all of the benefits that you both mention. I simply meant to point out that home schooling is a double edge sword...see the example of the woman I worked with. Her children couldn't read because her idea of "home school" was a constant barrage of arts and crafts! Not to mention her kids how have a lot of "behavior issues" because they do not know how to socialize since she kept them locked up at home all the time. Like I said, if it's well regulated (as it appears to be in New York) and the parents are qualified, there are no problems with it. It's when it's not well regulated it becomes an issue, which as Magical points out is more common in the Bible Belt (which I'm starting to believe Michigan is part of the longer I live here). I surely didn't mean to cause anyone offense and apologize if I did!


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Posted: 21 Apr 08, 09:23 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Yes, I already mentioned Magical and Allie - I am sure responsible parents can do a good job in home schooling. In my opinion it should still be the very last resort because school is such a vital task for the whole society and it should be supervised by the state and it should be constantly improved for all children. We have various public and private school, run by the state, private institutions, churches. All schools need to be approved by the state (they are also mostly funded by the state) and it would be totally impossible that a church removes their children from state supervision to an extent as happened in Texas.

I really think we have such different roots - The USA was more or less founded by people who left their home country to be able to exercise their religion with no interference by the state while here in Europe schooling is so much a social issue because education used to be a privilege for the rich people and later it was a place where children were brainwashed by the Nazis. To guarantee a good education for everyone and to avoid any kind of ideolical indoctrination of the children is the common goal of the state and the parents these days. We still have religion taught in schools (which is wrong in my opinion)but most religious teaching happens in the churches - where it belongs imo.

Also, the idea that new born children are not registered as citizens in their community is very strange to me. A child his entitled to citizen rights and protection and has to be registered. There are still enough parents who are ignorant and don't know about support and infancy health care they are entitled to. Also, registration helps to avoid child labor and ensures that all children go to a school by the age of 6.


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Posted: 21 Apr 08, 10:16 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

One thing I don't get which is also what YV thinks (I think), is how the hell did this go on for so long without anyone noticing? These people were on that land away from everyone, and they had to have been registered citizens. They must of been total recluses if the children weren't registered citizens when they were born. There must be things like this elsewhere too. It's really disgusting.


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Posted: 21 Apr 08, 11:22 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

A lot of things can happen when you live in the middle of nowhere.

And for officials to investigate, they need warrants with probable cause. If the cult keeps to itself and doesn't talk to authorities, then how do officials get to investigate? The only reason this broke was because someone called in, though now they're saying the original call was a hoax.


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