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The Real Wizard user not visiting Queenzone.com
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Posted: 18 Jun 08, 10:54 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

http://www.cbc.ca/money/story/2008/06/18/bushoffshore.html

Bush, paraphrased:

"If we drill for oil around here, it will make your gas cheaper. I promise!"

Very well done.


Your thoughts?



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YourValentine user not visiting Queenzone.com
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Posted: 18 Jun 08, 14:43 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Typical Bush 19th century solution for a 21st century issue. Any high school student has a better grip of reality than Bush.


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Posted: 18 Jun 08, 14:52 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

I expected more from you Barbara, but I guess name slinging is all you've got when it comes to U.S. Politics.

This is quite an interesting event. Perhaps you should read the whole story. There's quite a lot to digest there. Perhaps you are not aware of the oil embargo of 1973 which significantly changed the eoconomical dependence on foreign oil. This event could, in fact, produce similar results.

But instead of adding to what could be a great discussion amidst the incredibly profound "I'm High" threads that seem to be a better place for your Bush jokes, this is what you came up with?

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Posted: 18 Jun 08, 15:38 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

ADDITION:

The first step, Bush said, is to expand domestic oil supply by allowing drilling in the outer continental shell. He asked Congress to lift a federal drilling moratorium on offshore drilling. He said he would then lift an executive order that also bans drilling.

Bush also called on Congress to:

Increase access to oil shale
Permit oil exploration in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge
Increase domestic refining capacity
"With these four steps we will take pressure off gas prices over time by expanding the amount of American made oil and gasoline," Bush said.

Bush said his plan would also create jobs. Because the initiatives will years to implement, he urged swift action by Congress.


I guess this makes sense. All these people saying we need to "stop relying on foreign oil" are right. What's wrong with taking steps to do just that?

And if oil is an outdated energy source, who cares if we use it all up? By then, aren't we supposed to be relying on Dilithium Crystals or something?

And in response to Barbara's Bush joke:

YourValentine wrote:

Typical Bush 19th century solution for a 21st century issue. Any high school student has a better grip of reality than Bush.


An educated retort:
Once an exalted institutional model for higher education development in Western societies, the German university of today struggles to adapt to new challenges facing higher education for the new century, and appears at times entrapped within the myth of its former self (e.g. Ben-David, 1991). Rooted in the traditions of the medieval university, then in the weak absolutist state of the 18th century, and expanded with the promise of 19th century academic science, the German university with its ties to the state was the exemplar for the first wave of growth towards the modern university (Lenhardt, 2005).

Source: http://www.palgrave-journals.com/hep/journal/v21/n1/full/8300178a


So, Bush must have gone to a German university, then?

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Posted: 18 Jun 08, 22:17 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Oil and gasoline isn't going to get any cheaper...that's the bottom line. And it won't. To be fair, we in the US do whine about the high cost of gasoline, when they've been playing twice what we are paying now in Europe for a number of years now. We are just finally catching up to everyone else, so to a certain extent my fellow Americans need to sit down and shut up.
There is really no way to bring the prices down. Giving us a gas tax holiday won't work. Drilling offshore won't work. Opening more refineries won't work. We are simply running out of oil for our demand; the supply of oil isn't infinite.
There are a few ways to make Americans happy by decreasing the amount of money we spend on gas:
1) Spend some cash now to build up, improve and expand our public transit system (which currently ranges from totally sucks to non-existent). That will help the environment, save people from buying cars, and be generally cheaper.
2) Require higher miles per gallon on ALL vehicles purchased in the US. Of course this will piss all of my fellow Michiganders off, but tough shit. They should have seen this coming in the 70's during the last fuel crisis. Europe manages to have cars that get 40+ MPG.
3) Americans could also get up off their butts and walk/bike to places. That would also require more money to get decent and safe walking/biking paths in a lot of areas. But that would help with the amount people spend for gas AND decrease the size of Americans ever-expanding waist lines.
4) Finally admit that oil is a LIMITED resource, and it doesn't matter who controls it. We are NEVER going to see cheap gasoline again. We figured that out with ethanol; gas price goes down, but food price goes up since all the corn goes into the gas tank.



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Posted: 18 Jun 08, 23:17 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Increasing the supply of a commodity tends to decrease the price of a commodity ... even liberal economists understand that ...

It must be evil to drill for oil on a airport-sized parcel land in Alaska.


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Posted: 19 Jun 08, 04:46 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Sir GH wrote:

http://www.cbc.ca/money/story/2008/06/18/bushoffshore.html

Bush, paraphrased:

"If we drill for oil around here, it will make your gas cheaper. I promise!"

Very well done.


Your thoughts?


Bullshit.

My province is the oil province of Canada, YET we DON'T pay the cheapest prices for gas.

YourValentine user not visiting Queenzone.com
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Posted: 19 Jun 08, 05:41 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Gym Bitch wrote:

Increasing the supply of a commodity tends to decrease the price of a commodity ... even liberal economists understand that ...



But that is not true for oil,unfortunately. There is no market in the old sense, the oil price is not regulated by supply and demand. In Rotterdam the tanks are overflowing but the price is at an all-time high. In the 1970s the price went up when the OPEC limited the supply but now the price is high due to monopolistic structures and global speculation. If the US dollar were not at an all-time low the world-wide crisis would be even worse.

Oil will be needed by the chemical industry for a long time, it's the raw material for many products and cannot be replaced that easily. However, it can be replaced as the main source of energy and it's totally irresponsible to waste away the oil reserves for fuelling cars and heating houses. That's not a matter of ethics, it's a matter of economic reason. Investing into alternative energy is necessary to maintain our standard of living, it's also a growing market.

To give the oil companies nore rights to drill when they already do not use the licenses they already have is only serving the oil companies and not serving the people or the consumers. Why would the oil companies sell their products any cheaper when thy have even more power and more resources?


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Posted: 19 Jun 08, 06:31 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

RAISE THE GODDAMN FUCKING PRICE OF OIL.

Jesus H Christ. Fucking send it through the Goddamn roof. I want to see people walking to work, ha-ha.


"Your not funny, your not a good musician, theres a difference between being funny and being an idiot, you obviously being the latter" - Dave R Fuller
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Posted: 19 Jun 08, 07:14 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Zebonka12 wrote:

RAISE THE GODDAMN FUCKING PRICE OF OIL.

Jesus H Christ. Fucking send it through the Goddamn roof. I want to see people walking to work, ha-ha.


You just might have something here.

"Necessity is the mother of invention", yes? If enough people get pissed off, inconvenienced or go broke trying to put gas in their car so they can get to work, then maybe, just maybe, someone will come up with a more logical fuel option - and make billions doing so.

We're not motivated yet. We're all whining about the cost, but we're all still paying it. We're not commuting. We're not walking. We're not biking or taking public transportation. We're just kvetching about it and nothing more.

Additional drilling has been a Bush goal since day one. He's an idiot. But even if this idea came from someone sane, I'd think it was an bad idea. You don't add more of the drug so addicts can have as much as they want, you wean the addicts off the drug. We're addicts. We like the simplicity of driving up to a pump and filling the tank. It's our fix. And like addicts, we'll keep paying as the dealer raises the cost - and makes record profits because of it. And all the while, we fear pissing off the dealer because he just might withhold what we want and need.

We're so lazy. If 'someone else' comes up with another way for us to get from here to there without oil, we'll follow right along. Just don't make us put on those damn thinking caps. Let someone else do it. It's the American way.


SirGH - I think you might find this interesting -
http://www.sonyclassics.com/whokilledtheelectriccar/



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Posted: 19 Jun 08, 07:42 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Well it's certainly why there hasn't been a big ass real proper revolution in the US or the UK or any of those 'civilised' nations. No one can be fucked changing anything because the shit hasn't hit the fan yet - so we grumble, and grumble, and grumble, but nothing changes. Even though people are getting fucked progressively harder in the arse.


"Your not funny, your not a good musician, theres a difference between being funny and being an idiot, you obviously being the latter" - Dave R Fuller
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Posted: 19 Jun 08, 08:43 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

YourValentine wrote:

Gym Bitch wrote:

Increasing the supply of a commodity tends to decrease the price of a commodity ... even liberal economists understand that ...



In the 1970s the price went up when the OPEC limited the supply but now the price is high due to monopolistic structures and global speculation.

China and India have flexed their economic muscles and have greatly increased demand for raw material (including oil). Steel scrap prices are at an all time high for example.

...it's totally irresponsible to waste away the oil reserves for fuelling cars and heating houses. That's not a matter of ethics, it's a matter of economic reason. Investing into alternative energy is necessary to maintain our standard of living, it's also a growing market.

Mass use of alternative fuels is decades away ... drilling on a small bleak parcel in Alaska will will increase supply within a few years. If every house had solar panels ... that would not even dent the demand for energy. Nuclear power on the other hand ...




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Posted: 19 Jun 08, 09:15 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Totally with you, magical. But the idea of Americans taking bikes and walking to work does present some problems for most of the country. We are the largest country on the North American continent (caveat: I realize Canada is larger in square miles but 90% of their population lives within a few hundred miles of the border with the US, they aren't as spread out over their land as we are). Because Americans are so spread out, there are many places where biking/walking to work or places is completely unfeasible as things stand right now.
For example, I've moved back in with my parents while I continue the job hunt. They live in the country, 5 miles from the nearest town. Now I'd bike that in a heart beat, with one problem; there is no where safe to bike. Little towns and houses in the country are currently connected to towns only by highways (with virtually no shoulder and where people speed by at WAY faster than the limit and frequently in Michigan at least pass on the right when a car is turning left, thus using the shoulder) or two lane back roads (which have no shoulders and no proper lane markings, and which cars travel at a high rate of speed down). This combination of factors makes it practically suicide to try or walk or bike into town. I love the biking idea, but there is simply no where to do it. Money would have to be invested to create separate bike/walking paths to make it safe enough for many to consider the idea. In this situation, public transport like buses would be handy...but as I said before, they are virtually non-existent here.
Americans invented the car, mostly out of the "necessity being the mother of invention" thing. We were spread out across the country like no other country, and we wanted to get around faster. So came the car and the interstate system which could be used not only for faster movement of tanks between cities in the event of an invasion (the original purpose of the interstate highway system) but also could be used to speed general transportation. So we got what we wanted and got lazy. Now we whine about the price of gasoline; well, economists and scholars have been warning for years that oil was a limited resource. But we Americans do what we do best, ignore it. "I'll be dead by the time any of this comes into reality, so why bother now?"
I totally agree with you that Americans in the cities or towns close to cities have no excuse to still be driving currently. None whatsoever. If I find a job in a major city or within a close distance of a major city, you better believe I'm not having a car; don't need the added expense or stress of driving in those conditions anyway. But for people outside of those places, there are virtually no options. Unless major money is pumped into the public transit system to allow them to travel where they need to go in a safe manner.


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Posted: 19 Jun 08, 09:45 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

'Americans invented the car, mostly out of the "necessity being the mother of invention" thing.'

Karl Benz will be turning in his grave right now.

Henry Ford started mass production.


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Posted: 19 Jun 08, 09:52 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote



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Posted: 19 Jun 08, 09:54 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote



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Posted: 19 Jun 08, 10:24 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

When I was in Germany six years ago, I saw wind farms. Also, my German friend told me that the German houses are built with thick walls and are very well insulated so that they are using less energy to maintain the inside temperature. Then a couple of years after I visited there, Germany had some sort of government mandate (I think) to change the heating system of each house to a more energy-efficient system.

Maybe the high fuel prices will make people here realize that now is the time to work on positive changes.

I think, from what I've seen, Americans just don't care enough yet. It is widely known (I think) that if you slow down, you can increase your fuel efficiency. Yet everyone around where I live is still driving 10 mph over the speed limit. And, they are driving mostly SUV's it seems. I don't have an SUV, but they make up a pretty high percentage on our roads.

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Posted: 19 Jun 08, 10:49 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

PieterMC wrote:



PieterMC wrote:



Having problems with the buttons, Pieter?

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Posted: 19 Jun 08, 11:46 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Donna13 wrote:

It is widely known (I think) that if you slow down, you can increase your fuel efficiency. Yet everyone around where I live is still driving 10 mph over the speed limit. And, they are driving mostly SUV's it seems. I don't have an SUV, but they make up a pretty high percentage on our roads.


Oh, that's definitely true. There are a lot of ways to save gas. Another is to time the lights, never be at a complete stop. Sure, there are plenty of ways.

And the US DOES require a certain MPG on newer cars. But the idea of biking or walking? Sure, in some cases, but overall? Some people live several miles from where they work. Some people need to carry things with them to work, things that wont fit in that nifty basket up front.

And if Rotterdam is flowing over, why aren't they refining the stuff? Ah, so THEY can make more money off the demand.

We keep saying the "US" and the "UK", but really those two countries are a drop in the ocean in production. So BUSH isn't controlling the price of oil. From what I'm reading, most of you are against this and must be FOR foreign oil dependence. It's pretty simple... we don't drill, we keep buying at their price. In fact, as long as we're bitching about the weak-ass dollar (yes, it is very weak), what better way to start offsetting that. Increase the domestic product, strengthen the dollar.

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Posted: 19 Jun 08, 11:51 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Doesn't bother me much, I like a weak US dollar. I've been buying heaps of cool shit I usually can't afford.


"Your not funny, your not a good musician, theres a difference between being funny and being an idiot, you obviously being the latter" - Dave R Fuller