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The Real Wizard user not visiting Queenzone.com
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Posted: 23 Jun 08, 11:00 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Wow... this is from a right-wing newspaper:

http://www.torontosun.com/News/Columnists/Margolis_Eric/2008/06/22/5953041-sun.php

Discuss.



"The more generous you are with your music, the more it comes back to you." -- Dan Lampinski



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Mr.Jingles user not visiting Queenzone.com
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Posted: 23 Jun 08, 11:42 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Right wing in Canada = moderate conservative.

Left wing in the U.S. = moderate liberal.


[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Brandon wrote: [/QUOTENAME]... and now the "best you can offer is Mr. Jingles? HA! He's... just pathetic.[/QUOTE]
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Posted: 23 Jun 08, 11:55 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Well nothing new. Everybody who can analyse thing logically and not emotionaly and cares about politics claims the same since the beginning

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Posted: 23 Jun 08, 11:58 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

You'll have a hard time convincing rednecks/hicks/hillbillies this...


"only way to really know what the hell we are doing on this earth is through sacred plants and mushrooms." - Treasure Moment
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Posted: 23 Jun 08, 12:28 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Well, I learned a new word.

cock-a-hoop

Discuss.

AspiringPhilosophe user not visiting Queenzone.com
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Posted: 23 Jun 08, 13:14 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Mr.Jingles wrote:

Right wing in Canada = moderate conservative.

Left wing in the U.S. = moderate liberal.


Amen Dan!
Personally, I didn't read the whole article. The point is what? OK, so we "finally know" what caused the war (in his opinion of course...muddy ground to be sure). To a certain extent the reason doesn't matter now. What exactly does it change? Troops are still there, the area is still a death trap, 9-11 still happened. Knowing why (assuming you believe this guy) is only cold comfort. Spending time fighting over whether the invasion was justified or not is only appropriate for the historians and academics; not the politicians or the people.

It's similar to those "popular historians" you will find who write books about history like "What if Hitler had been killed before he rose to power?" or "What if Constantine had never become Christian?" Makes interesting reading to be sure, but it's "What If" history...interesting to think on, but pointless. It doesn't change anything in the present.

Politicians, the people and ESPECIALLY THE BIASED MEDIA (and name me one who isn't biased) need to let this drop and instead focus on what happens now. Let the academics debate the justification for invasion, everyone else should be focusing on how to clean up the mess. Once we get to a more stable place where we aren't dealing with such a mess, then we can think back on the justification and change the system to prevent such further abuses. Right now the anger is too hot, pain too fresh to think about it in a detached and abstract manner. All it does now is create a distraction which prevents progress from being made.


Formerly MHG
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Posted: 23 Jun 08, 13:27 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Sir GH wrote:

Wow... this is from a right-wing newspaper:

http://www.torontosun.com/News/Columnists/Margolis_Eric/2008/06/22/5953041-sun.php

Discuss.


"Reactionaries Catch Up With Rest Of World

In a surprise move, Canadian neo-cons and other assorted North American reactionaries decided to recognize the facts and accept that the Second Gulf War is mainly about oil. ''We have agreed we'll admit that the war is about oil'' says Mr. Gewt Ningrich (name changed for privacy reasons) ''so long as that keeps the bleeding hearts from yelling that it's about killing as many d**n Muslims as is inhumanely possible,'' turning slightly red, he added ''not that that is the case, of course''. This statement was part of the outcome of a three-day neo-conservative meeting in Qatar, consisting of three hours of intensive debate and 69 hours of government-funded debauchery. Other decisions reached include an endorsement of an Alabama bill legalizing negro-hunting (during the April-October season and the November-March season), a plea for full tax deductability of expensive liquor and escort service-expenses, as well as a petition seeking a United Nations resolution calling for the death penalty for anyone caught committing adultery, if the offender grosses less than $200,000 a year."


Not Plutus but Apollo rules Parnassus

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Posted: 23 Jun 08, 13:37 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

MasterHistoryGirl wrote:

It's similar to those "popular historians" you will find who write books about history like "What if Hitler had been killed before he rose to power?" or "What if Constantine had never become Christian?" Makes interesting reading to be sure, but it's "What If" history...interesting to think on, but pointless. It doesn't change anything in the present.


Your comparison would be accurate (but its contents just as faulty) if we were still talking about Hitler in 1940 before the USA joined WW2, or if we were still living in 400AD during the Roman Empire...

It's not really the same thing as long as the story is still unfolding in front of our eyes. It's not like the situation in either Iraq or Afghanistan has been resolved, is it?


To think it's "pointless" at this stage is like saying it's pointless to watch a football game after the halftime, or like quitting reading every detective novel once the corpse has been found!

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Posted: 23 Jun 08, 15:01 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

I think I got the gist of the whole thing. ;-)

We had a fiery discussion about this topic some time ago, I remember MasterHistoryGirl kicked me in the face and knocked me out and strangled me and had me say that she was not radical-left, nor communist or even socialist. There was blood all over my face, YourValentine, it must be said, CONDONED THE VIOLENCE, and I just wanted I reasonable discussion, with the guest appearance of MusicMan, who didn't show up, sadly.

I was serious in the discussion to the point of searching for a good book about it and adding some quotes.

But I was harassed throughout and humiliated by the corporations and the establishment.

Chomsky, Ya'ra.


Yara
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Posted: 23 Jun 08, 15:06 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

vote Queen

Erin user not visiting Queenzone.com
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Posted: 23 Jun 08, 15:57 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Paul Rodgers wrote:

vote Queen


You nearly blew your cover, Paul.

The Real Wizard user not visiting Queenzone.com
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Posted: 23 Jun 08, 16:39 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

MasterHistoryGirl wrote:

It's similar to those "popular historians" you will find who write books about history like "What if Hitler had been killed before he rose to power?" or "What if Constantine had never become Christian?" Makes interesting reading to be sure, but it's "What If" history...interesting to think on, but pointless. It doesn't change anything in the present.


Sure it does... decades or even centuries later, things can be altered to meet the needs of current "agenda X". It's called "collective history" !



"The more generous you are with your music, the more it comes back to you." -- Dan Lampinski



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Posted: 23 Jun 08, 17:30 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Damn cookies, Erin! :)

I was gonna enter this one, but I think Tero summed it up best.

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Posted: 23 Jun 08, 17:50 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Tero wrote:

MasterHistoryGirl wrote:

It's similar to those "popular historians" you will find who write books about history like "What if Hitler had been killed before he rose to power?" or "What if Constantine had never become Christian?" Makes interesting reading to be sure, but it's "What If" history...interesting to think on, but pointless. It doesn't change anything in the present.


Your comparison would be accurate (but its contents just as faulty) if we were still talking about Hitler in 1940 before the USA joined WW2, or if we were still living in 400AD during the Roman Empire...

It's not really the same thing as long as the story is still unfolding in front of our eyes. It's not like the situation in either Iraq or Afghanistan has been resolved, is it?


To think it's "pointless" at this stage is like saying it's pointless to watch a football game after the halftime, or like quitting reading every detective novel once the corpse has been found!


I fail to see exactly what the point of your first paragraph is. It wouldn't be "just as valid" to question what if Hitler never rose to power before he rose to power. You can't question an event that hasn't happened. The question itself could more longer and more accurately be stated as "With all of the horror and devastation that Hitler let lose on Europe during his reign of terror, we see the effects. If he had never risen to power, and none of these effects would have been felt, what would our world be like?" A question like this is not the realm of the historian, who deals with the past and facts. This is the realm of the philosophers and dreamers, who deal with things that have not happened or have not happened yet and speculate what they will be. As I said, it's an interesting question, interesting and fascinating intellectual fodder. But not history, not concrete. And because of that, only of very limited use as an intellectual exercise, maybe a vision to set a goal by. But nothing particularly tangible.

Indeed the story is still unfolding before our eyes; that was my very point. As the story is still unfolding, taking time out to debate how we got into this mess only takes time and focus and energy away from resolving the problem. Whether it is good or not, people are still too emotional about the argument to be able to look at the beginning in a detached way, and argue it while still keeping focus on the ways to resolve the issue. They are very one-track minded; focus on the argument over the justification, forget that we still need to clean up the mess. Because they clearly can't focus on both at the same time, it would be better for them to just forget the justification (temporarily) until the issue are resolved, and then after time passes and tempers and pain have cooled go back and do a full analysis. So in the meantime, let the academics handle the justification argument, and they might just come up with the next step (changing the system to prevent such abuses in the future) on their own. In the mean time the politicians and the people who (in theory) "control" them could put their time to better use by concentrating on how to resolve the issue.

As far as the last paragraph goes, that's not at all the case. As a matter of fact, you are proving my point entirely. Getting too caught up in one side of anything makes you unable to focus on the bigger picture. So if you are able, focus on the big picture, the whole thing. But not everyone can. If a football team plays makes a HUGE turnover mistake in the first half, and they dwell on it while still trying to play the second half, do you know what happens? They typically lose, because their minds aren't on the game they are playing. They should forget the mistake in the first half and focus on the game at hand, go back and review the mistake later to prevent it in future games, but don't let dwelli


Formerly MHG
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Posted: 24 Jun 08, 03:44 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

No, really.

You seem to insist that the past, present, and future are all separate things with absolutely no connection between them, and that's just plain stupid.

Surely you must know that past actions have an effect on the present actions, and help us in predicting the future actions?

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Posted: 24 Jun 08, 04:26 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

so the article was taken from the file marked
*stating the bleeding obvious*

we've all known this from the get-go,nice of them to finally admit it though.

if only Zimbabwe had oil....


isnt innuendo an italian suppository?

im gonna ride the wild wind!

its_a_hard_life wrote:you nutcase you rule!

joxer replies: but in a nice way :-]

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Posted: 24 Jun 08, 05:00 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Sir GH wrote:

MasterHistoryGirl wrote:

It's similar to those "popular historians" you will find who write books about history like "What if Hitler had been killed before he rose to power?" or "What if Constantine had never become Christian?" Makes interesting reading to be sure, but it's "What If" history...interesting to think on, but pointless. It doesn't change anything in the present.


Sure it does... decades or even centuries later, things can be altered to meet the needs of current "agenda X". It's called "collective history" !


So long as you realize that collective history originates from a *subconscious* process. If it doesn't, it's called pseudo-history.


Not Plutus but Apollo rules Parnassus

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Posted: 24 Jun 08, 06:26 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

JoxerTheDeityPirate wrote:

so the article was taken from the file marked
*stating the bleeding obvious*

we've all known this from the get-go,nice of them to finally admit it though.

if only Zimbabwe had oil....


I want to get together with a bunch of my chums and fake an oil discovery in downtown Harare. (<< However you spell it).

Seriously. You'd have an occupation force in there by tomorrow evening.


"Your not funny, your not a good musician, theres a difference between being funny and being an idiot, you obviously being the latter" - Dave R Fuller
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Posted: 24 Jun 08, 08:08 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Zebonka12 wrote:

JoxerTheDeityPirate wrote:

so the article was taken from the file marked
*stating the bleeding obvious*

we've all known this from the get-go,nice of them to finally admit it though.

if only Zimbabwe had oil....


I want to get together with a bunch of my chums and fake an oil discovery in downtown Harare. (<< However you spell it).

Seriously. You'd have an occupation force in there by tomorrow evening.


exactly


isnt innuendo an italian suppository?

im gonna ride the wild wind!

its_a_hard_life wrote:you nutcase you rule!

joxer replies: but in a nice way :-]