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Holly2003 user not visiting Queenzone.com
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Posted: 07 Sep 08, 11:47 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7602992.stm

I'd be interested to know how republican/conservatives view this. This is undoubtedly one of the biggest socialist measures since the TVA in the 1930s. It seems to me that conservatives are always outraged whenever the poor get anything from the fed. government but never complan when the government underpins or subsidises big business interests. Socialism for the rich?


"With a population of 1.75 million, Northern Ireland should really be a footballing minnow. Instead, they could be better described as the piranhas of the international game" (FIFA.com)
pittrek user not visiting Queenzone.com
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Posted: 07 Sep 08, 14:26 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

So what, socialism for the poor is better ?

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Posted: 07 Sep 08, 15:19 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Holly2003 wrote:

It seems to me that conservatives are always outraged whenever the poor get anything from the fed. government but never complan when the government underpins or subsidises big business interests.


If anything, conservatives are against subsidizations and corporatism (note that this has nothing to do with the business entities which are known as corporations) far more than they are against welfare. Just note that *both* these things are bad for *both* the rich *and* the poor, and everything in between.


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Delilah, on Medium Power
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Posted: 09 Sep 08, 10:54 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Well, being that I work in this industry, I have mixed feelings on the takeover. Primarily why I'm against it, is because the US Taxpayers are the ones who are footing the bill. If it works, great! If not, I don't need to pay more taxes in this crappy economy!

What is nice, is that interest rates have gone down over a point in the last 2 days, so the phones are ringing again and the refinance boom is on like Donkey Kong.

I don't see the "Socialism for the Rich" tie in, though. Mortgages are not just for rich people OR middle class. In fact, we tried to "lower the bar", if you will, to allow people who really had no business getting a loan... i.e. the poor and uncredit worthy. And it backfired. That's why we're in this mess in the first place.

Can't blame "the rich" for this one.

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Posted: 09 Sep 08, 14:24 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Microwave wrote:

And it backfired.


And Microwave wins the understatement of the year award...


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Haystacks Calhoun II user not visiting Queenzone.com
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Posted: 09 Sep 08, 14:42 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

The US debt just doubled overnight....

The days of if you had a pulse, you could get a home loan are thankfully over. I just think that it's a disaster to make hard working middle class folks like me, who pay their bills on time, who don't have credit card debt, who were smart and bought a home that we could afford, even if things went south in the economy for a while, and live within their means, pay for it.

If you went out and did something incredibly stupid, both as a home buyer who did it stupid, and as the lender to made stupid loans, why should we have to pay for that?

It's just silly. It is socialism. That said, it seems that is the way this country is moving.

The mortagage system was broke, government steps in.

The Health Care system is horribly broke, what will happen there? It's obvious that the free market system is pricing middle class folks like myself out of the picture. We'd like to have another child, but, between what I pay now for my family policy, plus the deductibles and co-pays, we cannot afford it. Yet, if LaQuanda gets knocked up with her 3rd or 4th kid, she gets a bigger check at the 1st of the month.

Yet again, middle class America gets screwed by the big guy. Every time.


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Posted: 09 Sep 08, 15:27 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Yes, but Haystacks, the Healthcare System does not drive the economy... mortgage backed securities do.

You're not being punished. On the contrary. You're being saved the expense that these homeowners are having to go through right now. 2-3 years ago, you could have gotten your mortgage loan. YOU made the choice not to do that. Not the government, the bank, or rich people.

The Fed really had no choice but to step in, since Fannie & Freddie fund more than 1/3 of all mortgage loans in this country. And yes, you're going to have to pay for it, if you're a tax payer. Of course, a lot of the rate hikes will be in capital gains, P&L, and other forms that will probably not affect you too terribly much... unless you would have bought that house!

Healthcare needs government intervention? I don't think so. I have medical insurance, dental, life and vision as well. All I had to do was work for 90 days and I've had it ever since. Yes, it's gotten more expensive because my insurance pays less, but the same goes with my car insurance!!! Do we need auto insurance reform as well?

I've always made THE CHOICE to work somewhere that offers a comprehensive insurance plan. Why should everyone be "entitled" to that? Where's the incentive to find a good job/career and make a better life for oneself and his/her family? Plus, if you make every employer provide coverage, you're only decreasing the amount he'd be able to pay in wages. So punish the business owner by taking it out of his profit margin? That would be Communism.

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Posted: 09 Sep 08, 15:36 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Haystacks Calhounski wrote:

We'd like to have another child, but, between what I pay now for my family policy, plus the deductibles and co-pays, we cannot afford it.


You might want to talk to your insurance company. I pay no more if I have one child or six. My deductable is $250. My co-pay is $20 per visit.

I'm not bragging, but that seems pretty affordable to me. If I didn't have any insurance, why yes, it's outrageous! Kind of like the "vet bill". Everyone wants a dog. Dog food is cheap. Let's get a dog. But if you can't afford to have your dog fixed, examined, groomed, and all the other little stuff like clipping his nails, wiping his drool, most poor people get the dog anyways and don't bother with anything but feeding it. I'm sure LaQuanda has a dog or two. Probably cable TV and internet as well.

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Posted: 09 Sep 08, 16:10 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

I'm talking about the out of pocket cost of having another kid. What I pay for that coverage won't change. Just absurd. Our daughter born in 1999 cost me $110. Another today would cost me thousands upon thousands....and, you have to fight tooth and nail to get things covered that should rightly be without question.

There is no one in their right mind that can argue that our health care system in the US is seriously flawed.

It should fall solely on the lenders who made bad loans to begin with, and the failed policies that led to that happening, as well as the fools who took out loans that they know they couldn't afford when it came time for the rates to increase...

The rate that I pay on my home is the same rate that I signed up for when we purchased it in 2002, which is still lower than rates are today. So, why should I have to pay for others stupidity?

Furthermore, why is it that I have to choose NOT to have another child, knowing full well that anyone collecting government checks at the first of every month can pop them out like it's their job, and get a BIGGER check to do it.

I'm tired of footing the bill for stupid people.


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Posted: 09 Sep 08, 17:11 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

I hear ya, Stacks. And yes, it has gotten a lot more expensive. But the government stepping in like they did with Freddie & Fannie wouldn't ease that cost at all. In fact, with all the changes and policies they'd institute, one might find the costs even higher.

And they have punished Lenders. Very harshly. Even the ones that didn't make the bad loans have had multiple programs stripped. We're using the same interest rate as everyone else, so we're paying. My company, the 6th largest bank in the country, currently has suspended all construction loans. That's a huge loss of business revenue.

But if you keep punishing them, there won't be any loan programs left, so you can't do that.

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Posted: 10 Sep 08, 16:48 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Topic Starter: there's a very, very large gap between a mortgage bank being taken over by the government and socialism. Even though hard-line rightists will certainly call it red.


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Holly2003 user not visiting Queenzone.com
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Posted: 10 Sep 08, 18:02 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

ThomasQuinn wrote:

Topic Starter: there's a very, very large gap between a mortgage bank being taken over by the government and socialism. Even though hard-line rightists will certainly call it red.


Hey that's me! Woo who!

Yes, this is an EXAMPLE of govt. intervention, but I'm not suggesting the US is a socialist country. Just that whenever the poor recieve govt. handouts it's always "an unnatural intervention in the free market" but whenever a private company gets bailed out, it's "for the good of the economy". Or some other feeble excuse to avoid addressing the double standard.

BTW, what do you call the government bails out a private business with taxpayer money?



"With a population of 1.75 million, Northern Ireland should really be a footballing minnow. Instead, they could be better described as the piranhas of the international game" (FIFA.com)
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Posted: 10 Sep 08, 18:28 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Only Holly is calling it socialism...


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Holly2003 user not visiting Queenzone.com
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Posted: 10 Sep 08, 18:42 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Music Man wrote:

Only Holly is calling it socialism...


Yes, that's correct. I don't come to Queenzone for political insight, but I stay for the hypocrisy.


"With a population of 1.75 million, Northern Ireland should really be a footballing minnow. Instead, they could be better described as the piranhas of the international game" (FIFA.com)
Music Man user not visiting Queenzone.com

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Posted: 10 Sep 08, 19:51 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

But where is the hypocrisy...?


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Holly2003 user not visiting Queenzone.com
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Posted: 11 Sep 08, 08:23 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Music Man wrote:

But where is the hypocrisy...?


"whenever the poor recieve govt. handouts it's always "an unnatural intervention in the free market" but whenever a private company gets bailed out, it's "for the good of the economy". Or some other feeble excuse to avoid addressing the double standard"




"With a population of 1.75 million, Northern Ireland should really be a footballing minnow. Instead, they could be better described as the piranhas of the international game" (FIFA.com)
Poo, again user not visiting Queenzone.com
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Posted: 11 Sep 08, 09:28 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

How typical of America to put the needs of the bourgeoisie before the needs of the people.


[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Jake? wrote: I want him to shove it down my throat and shoot. Shoot! Shoot! C'mon! SHOOT! SHOOT!

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thomasquinn 32989 user not visiting Queenzone.com
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Posted: 11 Sep 08, 10:40 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Holly2003 wrote:

ThomasQuinn wrote:

Topic Starter: there's a very, very large gap between a mortgage bank being taken over by the government and socialism. Even though hard-line rightists will certainly call it red.


Hey that's me! Woo who!

Yes, this is an EXAMPLE of govt. intervention, but I'm not suggesting the US is a socialist country. Just that whenever the poor recieve govt. handouts it's always "an unnatural intervention in the free market" but whenever a private company gets bailed out, it's "for the good of the economy". Or some other feeble excuse to avoid addressing the double standard.


I agree. But the term 'socialism' itself implies financial equality. This is more reminiscent of mercantilism, to be quite honest.

BTW, what do you call the government bails out a private business with taxpayer money?


I call that humoring speculators and lobbyists.


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Music Man user not visiting Queenzone.com

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Posted: 11 Sep 08, 14:16 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Holly2003 wrote:

Music Man wrote:

But where is the hypocrisy...?


"whenever the poor recieve govt. handouts it's always "an unnatural intervention in the free market" but whenever a private company gets bailed out, it's "for the good of the economy". Or some other feeble excuse to avoid addressing the double standard"



When have you heard that on QueenZone, was my point?


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Holly2003 user not visiting Queenzone.com
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Posted: 11 Sep 08, 14:55 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Music Man wrote:

Holly2003 wrote:

Music Man wrote:

But where is the hypocrisy...?


"whenever the poor recieve govt. handouts it's always "an unnatural intervention in the free market" but whenever a private company gets bailed out, it's "for the good of the economy". Or some other feeble excuse to avoid addressing the double standard"



When have you heard that on QueenZone, was my point?


Try this thread:

http://www.queenzone.com/queenzone/forumnew/forum_topic_view.aspx?Q=1125758


"With a population of 1.75 million, Northern Ireland should really be a footballing minnow. Instead, they could be better described as the piranhas of the international game" (FIFA.com)