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thomasquinn 32989 user not visiting Queenzone.com
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Posted: 12 Sep 08, 13:24 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/09/12/pope.france.secular.ap/index.html

"Religion and politics must be open to one another" says current pope Benedict XVI(former nazi youth and ultra-conservative cardinal Ratzinger). The fight between the Catholic church and secular rulers has been ongoing since the investiture controversy of the middle ages (11th century), but since the early modern era, popes have tended to have the good sense not to launch all-out attacks on secular rule. Ratzinger, however, seems intent on forcing Catholic values onto states, thus challenging divisions between state and church dating to the Revolutionary Era of the late 18th century.


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Posted: 12 Sep 08, 13:30 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

fuck the pope that filthy evil creature!


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Posted: 12 Sep 08, 13:30 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Wow. That actually came reasonably close to making sense. A personal record! Now, any comments from those zoners who are currently in possession of a brain?


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Posted: 12 Sep 08, 14:21 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

I think (or hope) that the west is well beyond listening to what the cockbag Pope has to say when formulating public policy. If you take out the word "cockbag," it reads like an informed opinion - but he's a cockbag, so let it be.


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Posted: 12 Sep 08, 14:22 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

So would the pope feel the same way if the religion were Judaism or Islam? What about Buddhism or Hindi? Or, imagine, an atheist as head of state. Wouldn't that be a hoot.

Couldn't you just see laws shift per election cycle according to the religion of individual leaders? And then what? Those laws should be respected by those of various religions? Or would he have only Jews following the laws of their Jewish leaders and so on... because somehow I doubt the religious right would follow the teachings and 'laws' of any other religion but Christianity. And what of the population? Should each religion have their own leader? Their own government or country? Maybe that's what he wants... toss out the nonbelievers, the infidels, so those of 'the faith' will be true to the laws of church and state. Sounds like extremism to me.

And my reply sounds like little more than rambling. Sorry, but I can't stand this kind of crap.



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Posted: 12 Sep 08, 14:29 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

I don't think he was saying that the two need to go hand in hand. Rather that they both need to be able to exist at the same time.

Obviously he knows the two can't intermingle successfully. Otherwise, he may be a little off his pulpit.

I don't think that either stance can conclude a prophalactic response, but thanks for the new word!

UPDATE:
The Pope just signed on to do 3 shows with Cheryl Crow for the Obama camp.

McCain is currently fumbling thru his rolodex looking for Mandela's number.

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Posted: 12 Sep 08, 14:30 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

ThomasQuinn wrote:

Wow. That actually came reasonably close to making sense. A personal record! Now, any comments from those zoners who are currently in possession of a brain?


you cant even compare to me when it comes to intelligence


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Posted: 12 Sep 08, 14:31 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Congrats, Papa.

Right back to Middle Ages.


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Posted: 12 Sep 08, 15:03 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Poo, again wrote:

Right back to Middle Ages.

I bet he lived during the Middle Ages.

Ratzinger and the hills. Since the beginning of time.


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Posted: 12 Sep 08, 17:14 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Treasure Moment wrote:

ThomasQuinn wrote:

Wow. That actually came reasonably close to making sense. A personal record! Now, any comments from those zoners who are currently in possession of a brain?


you cant even compare to me when it comes to intelligence


He's got us there!

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Posted: 12 Sep 08, 17:30 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Is religion really the problem, or is it the people who abuse it?


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Posted: 12 Sep 08, 18:01 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

The Vatican has little power when it comes to taking control of politics, even from Catholic majority nations.

So, that's just his opinion. A dumb one that is, but nothing to worry about.


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Posted: 12 Sep 08, 18:40 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Philly Guy wrote:

Is religion really the problem, or is it the people who abuse it?

People who abuse the power. And religion is a good "excuse" to do it.


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Posted: 13 Sep 08, 06:40 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

magicalfreddiemercury wrote:

Those laws should be respected by those of various religions? Or would he have only Jews following the laws of their Jewish leaders and so on... because somehow I doubt the religious right would follow the teachings and 'laws' of any other religion but Christianity.


Interesting you should say this. In the modern era, we (i.e. most countries) employ 'territoriality of law', meaning that you are subject to the laws of the state within whose borders you are present at the time. Earlier, from (late-)antiquity to the early modern era, Europe worked with 'personality of law', meaning that the laws you were subject to, depended on your identity: for instance, you were subject to Frankish laws if you were a Frank, Germanic laws if you were a German (in the old, tribal sense; there was no such thing as 'Germany' until at the very least the 18th century, or, more commonly accepted, until 1866), Jewish if you were a Jew, etc. This was very handy for merchants (who, incidentally, usually had their own quarters in trading cities, where they were in charge. Sometimes a single building, sometimes an entire neighborhood), but with the rise of nationalism (and thus, the idea of sovereign nation taken precedence over that of descent), territoriality gained favor.


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Posted: 13 Sep 08, 09:08 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

ThomasQuinn wrote:

magicalfreddiemercury wrote:

Those laws should be respected by those of various religions? Or would he have only Jews following the laws of their Jewish leaders and so on... because somehow I doubt the religious right would follow the teachings and 'laws' of any other religion but Christianity.


Interesting you should say this. In the modern era, we (i.e. most countries) employ 'territoriality of law', meaning that you are subject to the laws of the state within whose borders you are present at the time. Earlier, from (late-)antiquity to the early modern era, Europe worked with 'personality of law', meaning that the laws you were subject to, depended on your identity: for instance, you were subject to Frankish laws if you were a Frank, Germanic laws if you were a German (in the old, tribal sense; there was no such thing as 'Germany' until at the very least the 18th century, or, more commonly accepted, until 1866), Jewish if you were a Jew, etc. This was very handy for merchants (who, incidentally, usually had their own quarters in trading cities, where they were in charge. Sometimes a single building, sometimes an entire neighborhood), but with the rise of nationalism (and thus, the idea of sovereign nation taken precedence over that of descent), territoriality gained favor.


So if I understand this correctly, "personality of law" means those who come to the US from, say, Saudi Arabia, would be within their rights/laws to stone a woman to death for a perceived infraction, while a female American in Saudi Arabia would be free to wear a halter top and short-shorts while driving herself, un-chaperoned, to a co-ed party with strangers. Yes?

Maybe for the times it worked, but can you see that working now?

At this moment, in Colorado, there is a company with a large Muslim (Somali) employee pool. These employees have walked out on the job because they've been told they cannot have their evening break time altered to allow for prayers at sunset during Ramadan. Apparently, the company has already made other adjustments to ensure the job does not hinder their ability to practice their religion. But, for whatever reason, they can't allow this additional change. And so, there’s fury as well as work slow-downs and walk-outs.

Now, I'm sorry, but in my opinion, if you have a job, you follow the job description. If you're allowed two fifteen-minute breaks, and they don't coincide with your plans for the day, that's too bad. Why should a business - which has to produce a product and deal with other businesses in a business-like manner, within business hours, etc - have to alter its production schedule? What if Jewish employees there insist on leaving before sunset while Muslims insist on breaking for prayer five (?) times a day and Christians take the day off because it's Ash Wednesday and they want to go to church? What happens to the business? I see it the same for a country practicing "personality of law".

Unless there were to be a total breakdown of the Western world as we know it, this can’t happen and, most certainly, the pope knows that. That kind of thinking is dangerous, IMO, and impractical. Of course, as Microwave suggested, coexistence makes sense - though we still struggle with that. However, the way I see it, coexistence must be within the non-religious laws of a country, otherwise this battle of beliefs will never subside.



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Posted: 13 Sep 08, 19:36 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

ThomasQuinn wrote:

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/09/12/pope.france.secular.ap/index.html

"Religion and politics must be open to one another" says current pope Benedict XVI(former nazi youth and ultra-conservative cardinal Ratzinger). The fight between the Catholic church and secular rulers has been ongoing since the investiture controversy of the middle ages (11th century), but since the early modern era, popes have tended to have the good sense not to launch all-out attacks on secular rule. Ratzinger, however, seems intent on forcing Catholic values onto states, thus challenging divisions between state and church dating to the Revolutionary Era of the late 18th century.


hey your closed mind is tresspassing my patience's borders: all i read in your post is hate and lots of ignorance.
now the whole speech of the POpe wasmeant to create a dialogue between Church and State. A dialogue that certain people like you doesn't want to open. What's wrong with that?
it's not the first time you "delight" us with your anti-religious ideas.
i invit eall the reader of this post not to believe to this insane interpretation given to this speech, and i'm sure everyone has a bit more "culture" to avoid believing in this distorted anticlerical opinions about the Church.



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Posted: 13 Sep 08, 19:58 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Hitman wrote:

ThomasQuinn wrote:

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/09/12/pope.france.secular.ap/index.html

"Religion and politics must be open to one another" says current pope Benedict XVI(former nazi youth and ultra-conservative cardinal Ratzinger). The fight between the Catholic church and secular rulers has been ongoing since the investiture controversy of the middle ages (11th century), but since the early modern era, popes have tended to have the good sense not to launch all-out attacks on secular rule. Ratzinger, however, seems intent on forcing Catholic values onto states, thus challenging divisions between state and church dating to the Revolutionary Era of the late 18th century.


hey your closed mind is tresspassing my patience's borders: all i read in your post is hate and lots of ignorance.
now the whole speech of the POpe wasmeant to create a dialogue between Church and State. A dialogue that certain people like you doesn't want to open. What's wrong with that?
it's not the first time you "delight" us with your anti-religious ideas.
i invit eall the reader of this post not to believe to this insane interpretation given to this speech, and i'm sure everyone has a bit more "culture" to avoid believing in this distorted anticlerical opinions about the Church.

What kind of "dialogue" do we need between government and church? Tax isentions for churches? Laws filled with religious ideas, discriminating people from different religions?

As an atheist, I feel trapped just to think there are things I can't do because the Catholic Church (which to me is just a very old institution that spreads lies and tries to control people's lives) thinks they're wrong. The fucking Pope picked up a fight with our government back in 2007 because of our policy of giving free condoms, in some occasions giving free day-after pills and because legalization of abortion for babies with no chances of actually surviving after birth was being discussed.

I think the Catholic Church and all other religious institutions have the right to have their own set of rules. But they're supposed to tell THEIR PEOPLE to follow those rules. It's not the President's, the Prime Minister's or the congressmen's task to tell people what God wants. They're supposed to defend our individual rights, period.

Maybe by dialogue you didn't mean accepting whatever the Pope says - but to HIM, that's what it means. Benedict XVI has IN FACT been trying to interfere in governments. We are not supposed to let it happen. Aren't western countries democratic, don't they give people freedom to follow any religion they want or even to follow no religion at all? How can you feel free to follow jewish traditions if you are forced to follow christian rules? How can you feel free to be an atheist if you have to follow catholic rules?

The pope should go back to his cathedral and pray, that's what he's supposed to do. If he wants to make politics, fine. He's got his own country since the 30's. He can make politics over there, and let other politicians take care of their countries' politics.


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Posted: 13 Sep 08, 22:38 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

This really shouldn't surprise anyone that he says this; it's job security. Europe has been moving in a firmly secular direction since the Enlightenment, with many other "Western" countries following suit (though I do wish the US would pick up the pace a bit). That's why he's the attack dog that he is. He sees the papacy's influence and power waning, as millions of Europeans decide they don't need to listen to the papacy anymore, even if they are Catholics. He's trying to make sure the power and prestige of the papacy survives, and that the papacy doesn't wind up a relic of lost times, something that you read about in a history book but can't relate to. It's like the last throws of a drowning man who knows he's going down but can't accept it.


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Posted: 14 Sep 08, 05:32 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

First of all the Pope was not a Nazi. It would be good if you criticize him for what he actually does or did but repeating the tabloid rubbish about him being a Nazi in his youth only discredits your own intellectual honesty. He was registered into the Hitlerjugend like everybody else, it was not an act of choosing. He did choose to stay in the Catholic youth which made him unpopular with the Nazis.

About the speeches in Paris: the pope really did not "attack" the separation of state and church, he said that Catholics should re-introduce their religion into daily life and that the Christian religion is the ethical basis of our culture and should be upheld. You can disagree but it's totally normal that the Pope would say that, it's his job. Of course, he is also hinting at what many Christians find "agressive" behaviouur of muslims in Europe who are very visible in former Catholic dominated countries . Apparently, the Catholic church feels threatened.

It's certainly different in South America where the church seems to have more power, so yes I think it's outrageous when the pope interferes in the law making of a country in order to impose his morals on a whole country.




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Posted: 14 Sep 08, 13:38 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

YourValentine wrote:

First of all the Pope was not a Nazi. It would be good if you criticize him for what he actually does or did but repeating the tabloid rubbish about him being a Nazi in his youth only discredits your own intellectual honesty. He was registered into the Hitlerjugend like everybody else, it was not an act of choosing. He did choose to stay in the Catholic youth which made him unpopular with the Nazis.

About the speeches in Paris: the pope really did not "attack" the separation of state and church, he said that Catholics should re-introduce their religion into daily life and that the Christian religion is the ethical basis of our culture and should be upheld. You can disagree but it's totally normal that the Pope would say that, it's his job. Of course, he is also hinting at what many Christians find "agressive" behaviouur of muslims in Europe who are very visible in former Catholic dominated countries . Apparently, the Catholic church feels threatened.

It's certainly different in South America where the church seems to have more power, so yes I think it's outrageous when the pope interferes in the law making of a country in order to impose his morals on a whole country.



being catholic is euqalliy disgusting as being a nazi, they are both wicked and evil


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