Forums > Personal > Why I don't see a subject about Eluana Englaro???

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Posted: 10 Feb 09, 02:05 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

I know this has been discussed here before, specially with the Terri Schiavo's case, but this has been on the news and has brought the Euthanasia issue again.

I still think that maybe provoking the starvation is like a bit unfair, but how people can measure at some point that people on this situation will notice that?

And why people tries to stop a wish someone had that if she would end up in this situation that people surrounding her should let her die???


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Posted: 10 Feb 09, 03:03 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

If we did not have modern medicine the woman would have died "naturally " right after she fell into the coma 17 years ago. If the father had claimed he is a Christian and  does not want to act against God's will, maybe he would have gotten permission to end the situation many years ago. Maybe Berlusconi would not have tried to overrule a Supreme Court rule with an unprecedented legal move. He showed his true nature to the whole world when he said that the woman had to be "rescued" because she could  still have children. How disgusting was that.  I think Italian women won't vote for him again.


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Posted: 10 Feb 09, 06:55 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote



YourValentine wrote:

I think Italian women won't vote for him again.

But isn't the majority of the population over there religious and conservative?








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Posted: 10 Feb 09, 07:24 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Conservative and religious women are just as offended as any other woman when a (male) politician suggests that a woman who has been in a coma for 17 years could actually get pregnant and give birth to a child. That is so outrageous I don't understand he can even stay in his office after that. You cannot make your lack of respect towards women any more evident. Please don't think that religious or conservative women condone the rape of an unconscious woman.


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Posted: 10 Feb 09, 07:32 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

fuck the systemm yeahhhhhh


[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Jake? wrote: I want him to shove it down my throat and shoot. Shoot! Shoot! C'mon! SHOOT! SHOOT!

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Posted: 10 Feb 09, 07:36 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Just think; if aliens were to impregnate her instead, it'd be a movie.



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Posted: 10 Feb 09, 10:54 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Uhmmm no.

technically this kind of sentence of Corte di Cassazione is subject to change if a new law is approved.

In my opinion starving a human life is a crime; Eluana's opinion about preferring death instead of life in this condition comes from something her father reported, with all respect we dont' know if it's true.

Mr Englaro's wife is also very sick. I understand this man, who feels alone and hopeless, but i don't justify his battle. Starving her daughter is something i won't justify.

Berlusconi got a strong majority at the previous elections. He's not any priest or anything, despite the pressure of the Church we're not a confessional state. He just did what his government thought it was meant to be done.

I haven't read any declaration from berlusconi about this chance of pregnancy. Please quote it since i don't know if it really exists.

I'm open to a debate





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Posted: 10 Feb 09, 11:03 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

uh one more thing: if 100 years ago after this kind of accident she would have died, it's because our science tries to preserve our lives. it's not meant to save your life and then decide you're useless and you can "freely" decide to die.

It's a delicate subject, i can see many kind of nuances and everybody should give his own opinion to try to open the horizon. Of course in the end there must be the choice of the individual, but having a strong opinion i can't avoid to promote my point of view.

In italy a law is required, that's why they're making one now. I know it's already 2009...we're always late, but we've got the worst politics ever since the born of our bananas' republic ;) we have what we deserve?



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Posted: 10 Feb 09, 14:52 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote



 



Hitman wrote:



In my opinion starving a human life is a crime; Eluana's opinion about preferring death instead of life in this condition comes from something her father reported, with all respect we dont' know if it's true.






The most important part of this comment (and any other regarding this issue, I believe) are the first three words - "In my opinion". 

I would say we are each entitled to our opinion, and each should be respected - including the opinion of the individual involved. And so, in my opinion... it's not up to government to decide whether a person must suffer a terminal illness or whether the family of someone in a vegetative state must endure years watching their loved one wither away.

To you, this was a crime. To me, it was what must be done since true mercy killing - where a doctor will quickly and painlessly end an agonizing existence - is illegal. Their only choice in this case was to remove the feeding tube.

I agree that death by starvation is brutal. I do not know, however, if, in this young woman's state - she could have felt the pain of it. And sadly, as to the last part of your comment, even if Eluana had clearly written her wishes with witnesses present, those wishes still would not have been honored. Apparently, in Italy, a patient is allowed to refuse treatment, but only at the time treatment is prescribed. His or her prior declarations of choice are not accepted. 

Obviously, to some, the early termination of existence - which is what this was "existence", since this woman certainly wasn't "living" a "life" - is distasteful or against their god. That same group tends to have this warped notion that their view should be shoved on everyone else. That is as ridiculous and immoral as someone who obliterates the desire of a terminally ill person who has stated their wish to suffer that illness until their natural end. Who is anyone to decide what another should do in that situation? And how dare the government infringe upon such a private and personal choice.

This case is/was as disturbing as Terri Shiavo's case. Sadly, I doubt the insatiable need the government and church have to lord power over the lives of others will end anytime soon. 



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Posted: 10 Feb 09, 15:51 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

I can't say it better magicalfreddiemercury. I totally agree. However, I understand that this is a very sensitive subject in Italy... the nation of the pope.

Personally I believe this woman died when she still was a girl. When someone doesn't give any singel sign in 17 years then I don't believe she still feels or thinks anything. Think of family and friends who still can't close the book is she's still breathing.... breathing just because a machine keeps her alive by inserting food into her stomach. Now she can rest in peace, now the close relatives can move on.


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Posted: 10 Feb 09, 15:58 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Lorenzo,

first of all, my previous post was bitter irony in case you did not notice:)

secondly, here is the quote

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzJ7WDV2WBw

you may understand that a woman thinks it's revolting when a man uses this argument in such a discussion:  "a person who still can give birth to children" should not be allowed to die. This is so tasteless I have no words to describe my disgust. This comment by Berlusconi was reported all over European media, how could you in Italy miss it? Maybe because Berlusconi controls Italian media contrary to his promise he would give up his media power after re-election? This case shows  that Berlusconi has a problem with democracy. He had all the time in the world to make a law in due procedure which he did not do but then he was not willing to respect the highest Italian court of appeal's verdict and therefore he tried to whip a law through parliament against all democratic rules.

Back to the topic of the death of Eluana Englaro. I do not think it's a crime to remove artificial nutrition after 17 years of coma, it's not like someone is killing her. They only stop getting in the way of the natural expiration of Eluana's life. For me it's an act of love and compassion. I think it's a crime to force a body to hold on to a life after the soul has left it 17 years ago, it's cruel and unnatural. Of course, the doctors should try everything to save a person's life but there must be a point when we have to accept the inevitable. For me it's unethical to not respect the right of a person to die peacefully and in dignity.  I hope you can respect my position as I can respect yours. I would never tell you you have to switch off the machines if one of your loved ones is concerned but I would not want to be told I cannot switch them off if my family member is concerned. I agree with MagicalFreddie (like usual) - it's a very private decision and neither state not church should meddle into the death of my family member.



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Posted: 10 Feb 09, 19:03 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

ok thanks for replying in such constructive way.
First of all i'm not Berlusconi's advocate, but to be precise i'll write down what he said:

"(a person) ....that breaths without help, a living person, whose brain's cells are living and send electrical singals, a person that could also hypothetically give birth, in a vegetal state that might even change as many times it has hapened. Then, from a personal point of view, answering to my conscience, i would feel responsable of an omission in front of a person in danger of death...etc etc...

he was explaining the reasons why he decided to make a law to fill the empty space in our legislation.

i can understand your point of view but you can also notice that it was part of a larger speech,  and personally is not the worst thing he said in his career ;) please don't be mad at me now!!


back to Eluana :(
to me giving food is not "cruel" or innatural, even with the tube : | really i can't see it from your point of view. we try to feed africa where 9 children on 10 are born with aids and so on with other "desperate" missions....which i bless of course..so why not a feeding a "sick" person?

this girl used to breath on her own, a heart that was beating..i know it's a deep deep pain for everybody to see her "sleeping" for 17 years...i know! i understand your point of view, i understand her parents, everyone who doesn't believe and think is better to let her go....but i can't accept it. It's a life, despite what you consider a proper life. Of course i do not force anyone to think it my way, i just wait outside your door and leave you decide in your family, but i want you to know that to me this woman wasn't dead. Let's be brave, don't surrender to the pain and grieve.

If i was sure that she's suffering terribly and/or her life depends on a machine that makes her breath or makes her heart pumping...we may agree on a solution i think, for obvious reasons. But this is different. I have fed my cat when she was sick with a needle.

People have claimed "silence" after her death. Sorry, but this sounds so cynical: "ops she's dead..." i can't stay in the corner and accept it

sorry friends this subject moves me deeply!! :)





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Posted: 10 Feb 09, 21:43 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

IMHO

How can it be that living like a vegetable (for days or for decades) can be considered living? I really don't understand it. Technically perhaps it's still "living". Whatever. OK, medicine is great nowadays and they can nearly perform "miracles" (not always, though - some of these tricks are still reserved for that big guy upstairs to perform). But when nothing can be done, what's the point in preserving someone just waiting for some God's intervention (to not upset the almighty Pope which seems to be the real president of Italia for centuries) that will never happen? Just let the poor girl have some peace (I hope she did). Humans are so hypocrites when they want to play God. I wouldn't feel any guilty if I had to pull (or if I could do it) the plugs of some relative or significant person if I needed to. I'm not that selfish. Neither I'm afraid of the Pope, or of the fires of Hell.

Trying to keep the religious issues aside the most I can, I found it awful that some religions need to have these kinds of occasional martyrs to survive and to keep going with their delusional BS and gather some more sheeps here and there. But I think if God was so helpful he probably would have "fixed" her 17 years ago - why not? But He just thought that, for some reason, she "wasn't worth it" and was a "bad girl" at some point of her life and decided to punish her with eternal suffering. Blah. This is not fair, Big One.


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Posted: 11 Feb 09, 02:59 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Lorenzo,

it's not about "proper" life - that is not my point of view. Children with AIDS in Africa have a chance to get well, that is a totally different situation. Of course we should not only feed them, we have to get them the medicine they need to get well, that's why we all probably donate to the various AIDS foundations.

If a person is in a constant state of coma for several years there is no hope that she can get well. I know that there have been very few miraculous exceptions but not after such a long time. Of course, if it were you and I knew your opinion about the issue I would fight for your right to never ever be disconnected from the tubes because that would be your wish. I do not think it's the "brave" way if you let her hang on to the feeding tube. If you have ever actually been in a similar situation you know that it's so much easier to let the doctors handle it, shift the responsibilty to them and do nothing. That is easy. Nobody has to think or do anything. It's so much harder to take the responsibilty and to decide that enough is enough. It's not selfish to let her go, this father was not fighting for her peaceful death because he was tired of her, look at his face and you see the pain. The main thing is that everybody must have the right to make this decision without state or church interfering.

About Berlusconi's words: yes that is what he said and it's more than disgraceful. It shows the shallowness and ruthlessness of this man who does not hesitate to make such an awful "point" to make his case. Even the Catholic church would not suggest that a woman who is unable to move would be able to give birth - just incredible.


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Posted: 11 Feb 09, 03:52 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

We haven't heard the pope saying anything about this case, have we? Well, he'd better study on the background of persons who he rehablitates anyway... but that's another issue. ;-)

The worst thing is that I strongly believe that Berlusconi doesn't give a damn about this woman. This was just a stunt to give his popularity a boost. He's just gaining points over a dead body.




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because I'm an asshole but I'm learning.



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Posted: 11 Feb 09, 03:56 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

I want to add something, because you said Eluana was "sleeping" which looks very peaceful and harmless. I think many people are under the misconception that patients in a coma do not suffer.

When a patient falls into a coma their hands cramp and clutch together so strong that it's almost impossible to open them. To avoid fungal infections the nurses have to open the hands forcefully at least once a day to clean them and they usually put pieces of a towel into the hands keep them dry. The patients do not "sleep", their eyes are mostly open but rolled to the side or up, it looks very scary.

Only a few days after the patients falls into a coma they develop mouth infections because they do not eat, drink or speak. The nurses have to clean the mouth each day and treat the infection. During the treatment the patient usually moans and cries from the pain. A horrible smell comes out of the mouth of a coma patient.

Because of their immobility the patients have to be shifted around at least five times per day to avoid bedsores, the so called decubitus. Decubitus are open wounds which hurt like hell and are very, very hard to heal when the patient continues to not move. Even very good nursing homes cannot avoid bedsores all the time. When a decubitus develops the nurses try to hide the fact from the family members because they will get mad and start rows about the suffering of the patient. Over the years it gets harder and harder to avoid decubitus because the skin of the patient gets thinner, they lose lots of weight and the whole state of the body declines. I spare you the other awful details but believe me: death does not sleep peacefully under white linen, it hurts, smells and causes incredible suffering.

If you ever watched someone suffer like that you want to take a gun and shoot all these Italian politicians who make a sensationalist, tasteless, indecent spectacle out of the discussion of the fate of poor Eluana.


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Posted: 11 Feb 09, 06:45 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

The polemics about the Pope are neverending and often gratuitus because of his role, i'm not surprised, but i just remember that everyone is entitled to give an opinion. Also the Church.

About the disgraced conditions of a coma, again i understand the feelings that anyone me included may have in front of this scary situation but in that "thin" life that might never come back to a normality i see something that can't be denied. And causing a death is something that goes beyond my positions.

Again i don't want to force anyone, i insist that in the end there should be a personal choice (in a frame of rules) but i'd love people to appreciate life in this extreme conditions.



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Posted: 11 Feb 09, 07:08 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote



 



Hitman wrote:



"...but i'd love people to appreciate life in this extreme conditions."

===

A person ready to end a loved one's suffering does indeed appreciate life. 

This is where the misconception lies. It's assumed that because family members decide enough is enough, then they must be tired of the 'work' involved in caring for the person lying there practically lifeless. Or they must be so used to seeing that person in that condition that they no longer care of feel for him or her. That's wrong. The choice to 'pull the plug' is an excruciating one. Hope is something we all hang onto - often well beyond the time we should.
 
Letting go when you want to hold on is the most caring and unselfish thing to do. The people who decide to end the suffering of someone they love couldn't possibly "appreciate life" more.



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Posted: 11 Feb 09, 07:56 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote



Hitman wrote:

The polemics about the Pope are neverending and often gratuitus because of his role, i'm not surprised, but i just remember that everyone is entitled to give an opinion. Also the Church.

About the disgraced conditions of a coma, again i understand the feelings that anyone me included may have in front of this scary situation but in that "thin" life that might never come back to a normality i see something that can't be denied. And causing a death is something that goes beyond my positions.

Again i don't want to force anyone, i insist that in the end there should be a personal choice (in a frame of rules) but i'd love people to appreciate life in this extreme conditions.

I absolutely respect your position and we agree on the main issue: it should be a personal decision. What concerns me about the church is that they try to rule into the legislation of the state which I cannot accept - not from Islamic ayatollahs and not from the Catholic church. They can have their opinion but they should not try to monopolise the ethics of the citizens. When I do not believe that the Catholic church knows more about "God's will" than other people, I surely cannot let them try to make their opinion the law in the country. Btw, this is not only in Italy, it's in all countries, Germany included.

Let us just for a moment assume that the Catholic church is right in ruling that a coma patient who is unable to eat, drink, move, think, talk etc must be kept alive with tubes or else it's  murder and therefore a sin. Because God wants it that way. Now - what about coma patients in poor countries where artificial nutrition is not available? Does God make a difference between an Italian Catholic and an African catholic? In one case he wants the patient to live and in the other case he wants the patient to die? I think it's very daring to claim that anyone knows what "God's will" is. No devout Catholic (or Protestant or Islamic) person will be forced to cut the tubes under any law. But there must be the choice and it's NOT because people who want it to end are tired of it. You think that life must be preserved because it's a value itself no matter what happens while I believe that it's a decision of love and compassion to put an end to incredible, useless suffering. We both should have the right to have it our own way under any legislation.












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Posted: 11 Feb 09, 08:09 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote



Zebonka12 wrote:

Just think; if aliens were to impregnate her instead, it'd be a movie.
*waves arms maniacally*
bagsy the role of the impregnating alien!









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joxer replies: but in a nice way :-]