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bobo the chimp user not visiting Queenzone.com
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Posted: 13 Sep 09, 03:13 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

I dunno, does a protest count as much if it's been thrown by a third party?

I always liked the more spontaneous ones.  


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Posted: 13 Sep 09, 03:27 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Yes, it's funny how people take to the streets because they do not want to pay for the health care of their nation's children but do not mind paying billions for two useless wars.


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Posted: 13 Sep 09, 04:20 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Yeah I've never really understood that mindset.  I know that one's world view is supposed to change once they earn money for themselves, but I've done that now and honestly I don't think any differently.


"Your not funny, your not a good musician, theres a difference between being funny and being an idiot, you obviously being the latter" - Dave R Fuller
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Posted: 13 Sep 09, 04:54 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote



YourValentine wrote:

Yes, it's funny how people take to the streets because they do not want to pay for the health care of their nation's children but do not mind paying billions for two useless wars.

couldnt of said it better myself








isnt innuendo an italian suppository?

im gonna ride the wild wind!

its_a_hard_life wrote:you nutcase you rule!

joxer replies: but in a nice way :-]

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Posted: 13 Sep 09, 06:52 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote



YourValentine wrote:

Yes, it's funny how people take to the streets because they do not want to pay for the health care of their nation's children but do not mind paying billions for two useless wars.




Here, here!!!





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Posted: 13 Sep 09, 08:06 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote



YourValentine wrote:

Yes, it's funny how people take to the streets because they do not want to pay for the health care of their nation's children but do not mind paying billions for two useless wars.


It's not about that at all. These people aren't even thinking about the people who might seriously benefit from this. Instead, the numbnuts protesting are doing so for several other (pathetic) reasons -

They have been brainwashed to believe the plan:
1. is the first to force taxpayers to cover abortions.
2. includes "death panels" who will euthanize the elderly and infirmed.
3. brings the US one step closer to socialism.
4. will cover, and thereby reward, illegal immigrants and their families.

and perhaps the biggest reason of all for these people to protest the plan:
5. it's been drawn and presented by a (BLACK!) Democrat.




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Posted: 13 Sep 09, 10:14 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

http://www.insurekidsnow.gov/

"Health Coverage Plans


 



A new bill signed into law by President Obama makes millions of children eligible to receive health insurance.



 



If your kids do not have health insurance, they are likely to be eligible, even if you are working and even if you have applied in the past and been turned down.



 



Your state (and every state) has its own program, with its own eligibility rules, but in many states, uninsured children 18 years old and younger, whose families earn up to $44,500 a year (for a family of four) are eligible for free or low-cost health insurance that pays for



 



Doctor visits, Dental care, Prescription medicines, Hospitalizations and much more."



 



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Posted: 13 Sep 09, 11:06 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

I heard of one incident at one of those town hall meetings on health care where a person bit off the tip of another person's finger.  The injured person then went to the hospital, received care, and Medicare paid for it.  Ha.

Oh, well.  Maybe not so funny.

But I don't understand the huge upset crowds and protests.  The Democrats' plan of adding a public option and regulating the insurance companies sounds good to me.  If at the very least they got a bill through that would regulate insurance companies, that would be a huge improvement.

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Posted: 13 Sep 09, 15:15 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

When I first got wind of Bush's intent to invade Iraq I couldn't believe it. And the Walk-in-the-Park speech he gave was just ridiculous. I was then corresponding with an Arabist diplomat named Antony Sullivan, whom I had met by virtue of being a camel owner (long story) and he was devastated, not only because he had many connections in the Middle East but because he knew full well about what course the whole thing would take. I and many others wrote letters to Bush and our government representatives, but it was like spitting into the wind, as although there was some voting and bullshit that went on it was obvious that Bush-Cheney-Rumsfeld-Wolfowitz (the four horsemen of the apocolypse) had already made up their minds and anything else was a formality. Peace demonstrations that occurred were useless.

Obama won because people were so fed-up with the Bush-Cheney conservative crowd that anyone of a more sane viewpoint would have likely won. And he is a very good speaker, and unruffled under stress, so those and other factors made him very popular. But I've never before seen the bitterness that exists between the polarized Left and Right that there is now. A lot of it is stirred up by the loud and unaccountable conservative talk show hosts like that bag of wind and shit, Rush Limbaugh, but he is not the only one. They have hijacked the Republican party to be something far more to the right than before and call anyone who would compromise a RINO - Republican in name only. RINOs are those like John McCain and Colin Powell. I call them reasonable people, though McCain moved far to the right of his usual positions when he ran for president, especially when he picked that loon, Palin for VP.

Anyway, now the followers of Limbaugh and other far right wingers are stirring up anything they can to break Obama's presidency and get themselves back into power, so it is very hard to determine just who is really upset over the health care stuff and who is doing it due to ulterior motives. I've just washed my hands of it all as it seems so futile to get involved. One of my husband's cousins and I sometimes correspond by email, but I'm liberal and he is one of these far-right conservatives, and it is all that we can do to be civil about politics in spite of the fact that we like each other. It's horrible. He has the second amendment "Right to bear arms....." professionally painted onto the back of his truck, and I am in favor of gay rights, and never the twain shall meet!  :o)

Anyway, this has poisoned the atmosphere to get anything done.


Everyone thinks his own fleas are gazelles.
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Posted: 13 Sep 09, 22:56 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote



cacatua wrote:

When I first got wind of Bush's intent to invade Iraq I couldn't believe it. And the Walk-in-the-Park speech he gave was just ridiculous. I was then corresponding with an Arabist diplomat named Antony Sullivan, whom I had met by virtue of being a camel owner (long story) and he was devastated, not only because he had many connections in the Middle East but because he knew full well about what course the whole thing would take. I and many others wrote letters to Bush and our government representatives, but it was like spitting into the wind, as although there was some voting and bullshit that went on it was obvious that Bush-Cheney-Rumsfeld-Wolfowitz (the four horsemen of the apocolypse) had already made up their minds and anything else was a formality. Peace demonstrations that occurred were useless.

Obama won because people were so fed-up with the Bush-Cheney conservative crowd that anyone of a more sane viewpoint would have likely won. And he is a very good speaker, and unruffled under stress, so those and other factors made him very popular. But I've never before seen the bitterness that exists between the polarized Left and Right that there is now. A lot of it is stirred up by the loud and unaccountable conservative talk show hosts like that bag of wind and shit, Rush Limbaugh, but he is not the only one. They have hijacked the Republican party to be something far more to the right than before and call anyone who would compromise a RINO - Republican in name only. RINOs are those like John McCain and Colin Powell. I call them reasonable people, though McCain moved far to the right of his usual positions when he ran for president, especially when he picked that loon, Palin for VP.

Anyway, now the followers of Limbaugh and other far right wingers are stirring up anything they can to break Obama's presidency and get themselves back into power, so it is very hard to determine just who is really upset over the health care stuff and who is doing it due to ulterior motives. I've just washed my hands of it all as it seems so futile to get involved. One of my husband's cousins and I sometimes correspond by email, but I'm liberal and he is one of these far-right conservatives, and it is all that we can do to be civil about politics in spite of the fact that we like each other. It's horrible. He has the second amendment "Right to bear arms....." professionally painted onto the back of his truck, and I am in favor of gay rights, and never the twain shall meet!  :o)

Anyway, this has poisoned the atmosphere to get anything done.

I have been to the U.S quite often lately, much to my delight. I like your country, what can I do? ; -) Last time I was over there I felt that many people had legitimate reasons for taking exception to Obama and the Democrats. To be honest, he hasn't been, ever since the elections by the way, very clear about this and other issues. I read the papers, I like talking to people, and even so I was hard-pressed to find out where he actually stood on many issues. The contrast between what he promised in his campaign and what he's actually doing, and failing to do, does seem to upset people. What he was advocating in public back in July sounded nothing like the bill that Nancy Pelosy was announcing in Congress - his proposal was far more to the right, in fact, which made even some of his staunch supporters a bit angry. He promised a world of changes and hinted at numerous ruptures, and it's gradually dawning on people that there has been reluctancy in passing even gradual and small reforms. 

Don't you think the lack of clarity in public discourse in general also helps fostering the kind of nonsensical opposition to any proposed health-care reform bill that magicalfreddie and you have pointed out? In fact, how many different bills dealing with the issue have been discussed lately in Congress? I was told that the most recent one put forth by the Democrats has more than 1000 pages!       

    








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Posted: 14 Sep 09, 00:10 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote



Yara wrote:



 



cacatua wrote:



When I first got wind of Bush's intent to invade Iraq I couldn't believe it. And the Walk-in-the-Park speech he gave was just ridiculous. I was then corresponding with an Arabist diplomat named Antony Sullivan, whom I had met by virtue of being a camel owner (long story) and he was devastated, not only because he had many connections in the Middle East but because he knew full well about what course the whole thing would take. I and many others wrote letters to Bush and our government representatives, but it was like spitting into the wind, as although there was some voting and bullshit that went on it was obvious that Bush-Cheney-Rumsfeld-Wolfowitz (the four horsemen of the apocolypse) had already made up their minds and anything else was a formality. Peace demonstrations that occurred were useless.

Obama won because people were so fed-up with the Bush-Cheney conservative crowd that anyone of a more sane viewpoint would have likely won. And he is a very good speaker, and unruffled under stress, so those and other factors made him very popular. But I've never before seen the bitterness that exists between the polarized Left and Right that there is now. A lot of it is stirred up by the loud and unaccountable conservative talk show hosts like that bag of wind and shit, Rush Limbaugh, but he is not the only one. They have hijacked the Republican party to be something far more to the right than before and call anyone who would compromise a RINO - Republican in name only. RINOs are those like John McCain and Colin Powell. I call them reasonable people, though McCain moved far to the right of his usual positions when he ran for president, especially when he picked that loon, Palin for VP.

Anyway, now the followers of Limbaugh and other far right wingers are stirring up anything they can to break Obama's presidency and get themselves back into power, so it is very hard to determine just who is really upset over the health care stuff and who is doing it due to ulterior motives. I've just washed my hands of it all as it seems so futile to get involved. One of my husband's cousins and I sometimes correspond by email, but I'm liberal and he is one of these far-right conservatives, and it is all that we can do to be civil about politics in spite of the fact that we like each other. It's horrible. He has the second amendment "Right to bear arms....." professionally painted onto the back of his truck, and I am in favor of gay rights, and never the twain shall meet!  :o)

Anyway, this has poisoned the atmosphere to get anything done.


I have been to the U.S quite often lately, much to my delight. I like your country, what can I do? ; -) Last time I was over there I felt that many people had legitimate reasons for taking exception to Obama and the Democrats. To be honest, he hasn't been, ever since the elections by the way, very clear about this and other issues. I read the papers, I like talking to people, and even so I was hard-pressed to find out where he actually stood on many issues. The contrast between what he promised in his campaign and what he's actually doing, and failing to do, does seem to upset people. What he was advocating in public back in July sounded nothing like the bill that Nancy Pelosy was announcing in Congress - his proposal was far more to the right, in fact, which made even some of his staunch supporters a bit angry. He promised a world of changes and hinted at numerous ruptures, and it's gradually dawning on people that there has been reluctancy in passing even gradual and small reforms. 

Don't you think the lack of clarity in public discourse in general also helps fostering the kind of nonsensical opposition to any proposed health-care reform bill that magicalfreddie and you have pointed out? In fact, how many different bills dealing with the issue have been discussed lately in Congress? I was told that the most recent one put forth by the Democrats has more than 1000 pages!       

    






Well, I wasn't planning to dive into this in depth, but Obama was never my choice. I felt that the situation we were in after Bush required someone with experience, but the Obama campaign managed to sell the young people on "Change" over "Experience". Not that there weren't enough mistakes made to go around, but the way the Obama campaign talked, he would have to be going to Washington as king in order to deliver. The fact that people ate this up was as baffling to me as Bush's Walk-in-the-park speech about invading Iraq. Part of it was also that people really wanted to elect the first black president. 

I'm in Iowa, where we had the first caucuses and really were inundated with politics. I've never been involved in it before, but after Bush-Cheney...................My guy, Joe Biden, ended up as Obama's VP, oddly enough. So I found myself in the Obama camp anyway at the end. I volunteered for Joe Biden, and I got to be around him whenever he was in our part of the state, help set up appearances and hear him speak a number of times. I think we would be in better shape if he were president and Obama was VP, in training for the top job, so to speak. Joe would never have promised the moon when he knew damn well that it couldn't be delivered the way things were going. He's a liberal guy, but practical, and after 35 years in the Senate he was a known quantity so that colleagues would know what to expect from him.

I don't for the life of me know why Obama didn't get right in there about the health care issue instead of just letting it get ripped to shreds for so long. I don't think the 1000 pages part is anything that out of the ordinary. They have voted on plenty of stuff that nobody but their staffers ever read first. That this one is being made a big deal of, due to the 1000 pages part is just blowing smoke.

The growing importance of the internet is both a blessing and a curse because stuff spreads on it like wildfire. Add to that these conservative radio windbags whipping the flames, as well as the blogs on both sides, and you get chaos. Obama used the internet to his advantage to win, but now its sort of biting him in the butt. Viral emails circulate asserting stuff about the health bill that isn't even true, like "pulling the plug on Grandma" to save money, but it gets gullible people all excited. Plus they also bring up hot button issues like abortion that gets the Bible thumpers all wound up and hostile. It's just a mess and I don't know where it will end up. 






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Posted: 14 Sep 09, 04:45 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

lets put this another way.
If i lived in the US I'd probably be dead now due to their healthcare practises as they stand at the present [i would not be able to afford their insurance plans],thankfully i live in the UK  where i get FREE  NHS [national health service] healthcare and am able to get treated at home by nurses for my diabetes if it flares up without having to go to hospital.
shouldnt every human being be entitled to free health care if it can be made available,it shouldnt come down to whether or not they can afford to be ill or not..?


isnt innuendo an italian suppository?

im gonna ride the wild wind!

its_a_hard_life wrote:you nutcase you rule!

joxer replies: but in a nice way :-]

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Posted: 14 Sep 09, 05:24 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

I don't think the protesters have ever heard of a little thing called the Declaration of Human Rights, much the less read the thing.


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Posted: 14 Sep 09, 07:54 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote







JoxerTheDeityPirate wrote:



lets put this another way.
If i lived in the US I'd probably be dead now due to their healthcare practises as they stand at the present [i would not be able to afford their insurance plans],thankfully i live in the UK  where i get FREE  NHS [national health service] healthcare and am able to get treated at home by nurses for my diabetes if it flares up without having to go to hospital.
shouldnt every human being be entitled to free health care if it can be made available,it shouldnt come down to whether or not they can afford to be ill or not..?



My husband Dan and I were always fortunate enough to get healthcare provided through my husband's place of employment. In 2002, Dan was laid off from his company. It took quite awhile for him to find an new job, and during that time we were covered by Cobra, which allows you to purchase healthcare through our old employer at their price for a certain length of time while looking for a new job/health insurance.  When he did find a new job, the company did not provide healthcare. My husband had to begin shopping for a healthcare plan. Now, I was born with a genetic connective tissue disorder called Ehler's Danlos Syndrome. And later on in life I have been riddled with other illnesses, including Deep Vein Thrombosis, Veinous Insufficiency, Autoimmune disorders and the like. I am on many prescription drugs to manage my conditions, and must have frequent bloodwork, hospital tests, etc. When my husband set out to find us healthcare, he was astounded. He called dozens of Insurance companies, and ALL  told him the same thing. They would insure my husband, and my son. But because of my pre-existing conditions, NOT me. Finally, the BEST deal we got was 1700.00 dollars a month, with a deductable of 4000.00 dollars!!!! My prescriptions alone were 700.00 dollars a month at that time!! Needless to say, we were quickly in ruins. We couldn't afford food. The house payment. The stress was overwhelming. My husband found a new job as quickly as he could (but being in his 50's and in a crumbling economy it wasn't easy and it took quite a long time.)  We now have great healthcare through my husband's new employer, but still live in fear everyday that with the poor economy that his new company will close or stop providing healthcare. If this happens I don't even know what we will do.

Something must be done.







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Posted: 14 Sep 09, 08:55 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Hi, this is Janet's husband Dan. Just to add to Janet's post, the only way that I was even able to get healthcare benefits for her at all during that time was to start my own company back up (At one point I had owned my own company, and even though I was no longer in business, I kept the company open.) and to join COSE, a group that forms together many small businesses to get better healthcare prices. And it is true that until I finally did that not one insurance company would insure my wife.

Thank goodness that I found my new job when I did. We were almost done in already, and then six months after I got my new job with healthcare I was diagnosed with prostate cancer and had to go through surgery and weeks of radiation. I shudder to think what may have happened if I had not found my new job.


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Posted: 14 Sep 09, 09:20 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote



Donna13 wrote:

http://www.insurekidsnow.gov/

"Health Coverage Plans


 



 



 



A new bill signed into law by President Obama makes millions of children eligible to receive health insurance.



 



 



 



If your kids do not have health insurance, they are likely to be eligible, even if you are working and even if you have applied in the past and been turned down.



 



 



 



Your state (and every state) has its own program, with its own eligibility rules, but in many states, uninsured children 18 years old and younger, whose families earn up to $44,500 a year (for a family of four) are eligible for free or low-cost health insurance that pays for



 



 



 



Doctor visits, Dental care, Prescription medicines, Hospitalizations and much more."



 



 



 



This is not new in my state and Obama didn't sign this law into effect...at least in my state he didn't. KCHIP (Kentucky Children's Health Insurance Program) has been around for years and years.







Wo ist das kamerahhhhhhhhhhh!!!



NJ!!!























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Posted: 14 Sep 09, 09:21 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Janet and Dan -  am glad to hear you are okay for now and I hope  that you never end up in a situation that you are ill and have to worry on top of the illness that your health bills are not covered. I am not familiar with the details of President Obama's health care plans but basically a public health care system works when those who have jobs and income pay into the insurance and those who cannot pay are insured all the same. The more people pay into the system, the better health care can be provided for all. Certainly, there is no perfect system but the society should be willing to work together to provide health insurance for everybody and should not give in to the protests of a bunch of brainwashed sociopaths who do not even know what they are fighting against.



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Posted: 14 Sep 09, 10:54 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Janet and Dan,
Your story is similar to others we have heard, especially ever since campaign season began in '07. I'm so sorry that you had to go through that and now live in anxiety over your situation. My husband Had a stroke 2-1/2 years ago and last year, prostate cancer. Luckily he had retired with health insurance paid until he turned 65 a short time ago and went on Medicare. I am several years younger and we now have to pay $500 a month just for my insurance. Like many others, our retirement fund took a nose dive with the stock markets, but at least we have about 45 acres of ground, some livestock, and own everything free and clear.

The attitude of some of these conservative nut-cases seems to be that "I have mine and the hell with everyone else." Also I know from corresponding with that cousin, Paul, that there is an attitude that these people who don't have insurance have either made that choice or they have big-screen TV's with cable reception, and a lot of other goodies that they have spent their money on so that they can't afford insurance. Now they want the government to pay for it - in other words taxpayers like himself. And these people usually claim to be god-fearing Christians!

Good grief - guns and ammo have been flying off of gun dealers' shelves because these people have been convinced by web sites, emails, and conservative talk radio that Obama will make it impossible to acquire guns, or ammunition, or will take them away. These aren't sporting weapons either. They are assault rifles and survivalist weapons that nobody should have outside of the military.

The parents of that cousin I keep mentioning also live not far from us, having come here from Colorado several years ago. They are both college educated and bright people, but last year before the election took place Ron forwarded an email to me that he had gotten from a friend back in Colorado. This email was about Barack and Michelle Obama and was full of incredible stuff about how they hated the American flag and other such rot and how they were committed to making us a socialist country. There were so many red flags in this thing that it would have been laughable if it weren't so incredible that even these college educated, bright people were believing this garbage! Ron didn't send it to me as an example of how ridiculous the political stuff had gotten. He sent it to me as in "See - THIS is what Obama is really about!" I was so upset that in doing an email to send back to him I forgot that I had something cooking on the stove and by the time I smelled it burning it was too late.

That is how screwed-up politics has become here. That a single-payer, not-for-profit health insurance system makes sense is totally a hostile idea to these right-wing people. What they see is somebody getting something for nothing, and them paying for it.


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Posted: 14 Sep 09, 11:14 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

What Obama did was sign a federal law into effect that gives more federal money to the states so that they can insure many more children under their CHIP programs.  The Act he signed was called the Children's Health Insurance Program Reauthorization Act of 2009.  (It would be impossible for Obama to sign a state law; only a state's Governor can do that.  Obama only has executive power at the federal level.) 

http://www.hhs.gov/news/press/2009pres/06/20090619a.html

Hey, this makes it much more clear (hope it is correct information):  (from Wikipedia)

"The State Children's Health Insurance Program (SCHIP) – later known more simply as the Children's Health Insurance Program (CHIP) – is a program administered by the United States Department of Health and Human Services that provides matching funds to states for health insurance to families with children. The program was designed with the intent to cover uninsured children in families with incomes that are modest but too high to qualify for Medicaid.

 



 



 



At its creation in 1997, SCHIP was the largest expansion of taxpayer-funded health insurance coverage for children in the U.S. since Medicaid began in the 1960s. The statutory authority for SCHIP is under title XXI of the Social Security Act. It was sponsored by Senator Ted Kennedy in a partnership with Senator Orrin Hatch with support coming from First Lady Hillary Rodham Clinton during the Clinton administration.



 



 



 



States are given flexibility in designing their SCHIP eligibility requirements and policies within broad federal guidelines. Some states have received authority through waivers of statutory provisions to use SCHIP funds to cover the parents of children receiving benefits from both SCHIP and Medicaid, pregnant women, and other adults. SCHIP covered 6.6 million children and 670,000 adults at some point during Federal fiscal year 2006, and every state has an approved plan.  Despite SCHIP, the number of uninsured children continued to rise, particularly among families that cannot qualify for SCHIP. An October 2007 study by the Vimo Research Group found that 68.7 percent of newly uninsured children were in families whose incomes were 200 percent of the federal poverty level or higher.  In FY 2008, the program faced funding shortfalls in several states.



 



 



 



During the administration of George W. Bush, two attempts to expand funding for the program failed when Bush vetoed them. In February 2009, President Barack Obama signed legislation expanding the program to an additional 4 million children and pregnant women, including for the first time legal immigrants without a waiting period. On February 4. 2009, President Obama signed the Children's Health Insurance Reauthorization Act of 2009."



 



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Posted: 14 Sep 09, 15:31 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

The healthcare system in the the US and the attitutes of so many people to it never fails to surprise me.  (And i guess its not just the health care, social spending in general.)  I mean, the healthcare system in Ireland isnt great, and with funding cuts its getting worse, but you won't be in debt for the rest of your life if you don't have insurance, and you won't be denied treatment, even though we still all complain about the fee for an emergancy room visit!  But from what I've seen in my time in the States,there seems to be a mindset among a lot of conservative people that poor people almost 'deserve' to be poor and that they are being irresponsible by not getting health insurance, because everyone knows you need it.  And as someone else said, they cite ownership of a tv or something as a sign that the person isn't really poor - what do they want, for people already in extreemly difficult circumstances to live even more miserably to prove some kind of point?!  Anyway, i hope Obama succeeds in making some kind of change in it.