Forums > Personal > Banning religious symbols

forum rss feed
Author

magicalfreddiemercury user not visiting Queenzone.com
magicalfreddiemercury
Deity: 2693 posts
add to buddy list send PM

Posted: 26 Jan 10, 08:12 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

By a large majority, the Swiss voted to ban construction of Islamic minarets because some see them “as a sign of encroaching Islamism”.









Meanwhile, French lawmakers have agreed to ban the burqa in hospitals, schools and other public places (though not on the streets). Sarkozy said, “The problem of the burqa is not a religious problem. This is an issue of a woman's freedom and dignity. This is not a religious symbol. It is a sign of subservience; it is a sign of lowering.” (the French have banned the burqa in schools too, but have also banned other religious symbols in schools - like the Jewish skull cap and large Christian crucifixes. So it's not just symbols of Islam being subdued.)











An opponent of the burqa ban said that the ban itself is what subjugated women by ordering them to wear something other than the burqa.











So… I wonder what the opinions are here. Do you agree with the Swiss and the French? Or do you feel these laws/ideas cross the line by inhibiting religious and personal freedoms? Would you vote for these restrictions in your country and if so, what do you think the backlash would be… if any?








"The others don't like my interviews. And frankly, I don't care much for theirs." ~ Freddie Mercury



pittrek user not visiting Queenzone.com
pittrek
Deity: 10070 posts
add to buddy list send PM

Posted: 26 Jan 10, 09:13 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

No.

Everybody should be allowed to wear anything s/he wants, including religious symbols, or e.g. Hakenkreuz or Che Guevara pictures, I don't care. Also when christians are allowed to have churches, why can't muslims have minarets if they live there ?

Seriously, I'm a bloody anarchist in some aspects

PauloPanucci user not visiting Queenzone.com
papp
PauloPanucci
Bohemian: 990 posts
add to buddy list send PM

Posted: 26 Jan 10, 11:01 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote



pittrek wrote:

No.

Everybody should be allowed to wear anything s/he wants, including religious symbols, or e.g. Hakenkreuz or Che Guevara pictures, I don't care. Also when christians are allowed to have churches, why can't muslims have minarets if they live there ?

Seriously, I'm a bloody anarchist in some aspects

agree with you! i think everybody can wear anything, INCLUDING religious symbols. wear religious symbols is not a crime








P.A
Yara user not visiting Queenzone.com

Royalty: 1430 posts
add to buddy list send PM

Posted: 26 Jan 10, 11:09 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Nice topic. : )))

Thanks.


Yara
Serry... user not visiting Queenzone.com

Deity: 8271 posts
add to buddy list send PM

Posted: 26 Jan 10, 11:17 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Yes I do.


catqueen user not visiting Queenzone.com
:)

Royalty: 1758 posts
add to buddy list send PM

Posted: 26 Jan 10, 14:25 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

I never know what to think about this... i think everyone should be free, and people should be able to practice their religion as long as it doesn't hurt people.  But i also see the side of the argument that says that it is impinging on womens freedom, as some, esp children, may not want to wear it.  But is that a reason to ban religious expression?  The issue is the violation of women, so maybe it would be better to have more safeguards against domestic violation and subection of women, as that is the real issue, not whether they wear something or not.  I veer back and forth in what i think about this.  And i really dont understand the problem with minuets, although i vaguely remember hearing that the issue was someting to do with that they symbolise something, im not quite sure what.  I dont know, i find it hard to understand... we are supposed to be becoming more accepting, more open, less discriminatory, and then this???

catqueen user not visiting Queenzone.com
:)

Royalty: 1758 posts
add to buddy list send PM

Posted: 26 Jan 10, 14:26 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Did i just say minuet? rofl  You know what i mean!

magicalfreddiemercury user not visiting Queenzone.com
magicalfreddiemercury
Deity: 2693 posts
add to buddy list send PM

Posted: 26 Jan 10, 15:01 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote















catqueen wrote:







...And i really dont understand the problem with minuets, although i vaguely remember hearing that the issue was someting to do with that they symbolise something, im not quite sure what .






According to an AP news article... the sponsors of the ban said "Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan compared mosques to Islam's military barracks and called the minarets 'our bayonets.' Erdogan made the comment in citing an Islamic poem many years before he became prime minister."

So, they consider the minarets a threat, warning, instigation or insinuation of Islam into Swiss society, and therefore object.








"The others don't like my interviews. And frankly, I don't care much for theirs." ~ Freddie Mercury



magicalfreddiemercury user not visiting Queenzone.com
magicalfreddiemercury
Deity: 2693 posts
add to buddy list send PM

Posted: 26 Jan 10, 15:01 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote



catqueen wrote:

Did i just say minuet? rofl  You know what i mean!

lol!








"The others don't like my interviews. And frankly, I don't care much for theirs." ~ Freddie Mercury



The Real Wizard user not visiting Queenzone.com
The Real Wizard
Deity: 18616 posts
add to buddy list send PM

Posted: 26 Jan 10, 17:34 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote































magicalfreddiemercury wrote:















Or do you feel these laws/ideas cross the line by inhibiting religious and personal freedoms?














































































































Absolutely not.  Wearing a burqa is not a religious issue, nor is it an issue of personal freedom - unless you're talking about the personal freedom of men.  A burqa is nothing more than a medieval chastity belt imposed on women by men.  How many of these women get a say in the situation, and how many of them enjoy being in pure black on a 90 degree summer day?

In Canada, they proposed a bill to require all women to reveal their faces when voting, just so the folks in charge could be sure of the person's identity... but unfortunately it was thrown out.  France is right on the money with their stance, and I hope this mentality spreads.

These are not our cultural values, and never will be.  If these people don't like it, then they should stay in their home countries and practice it there.  If we western folk visit certain countries, we are required by law to dress according to their customs.  Why should we be any different when they come here?  The 21st century west should have no place for these outdated, misogynistic practices.



"The more generous you are with your music, the more it comes back to you." -- Dan Lampinski



http://www.queenlive.ca
Mr.Jingles user not visiting Queenzone.com
Mr.Jingles
Deity: 10532 posts
add to buddy list send PM

Posted: 26 Jan 10, 19:28 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote







Sir GH wrote:



































































































































magicalfreddiemercury wrote:































































Or do you feel these laws/ideas cross the line by inhibiting religious and personal freedoms?






























































































































































































































































































































































































































































Absolutely not.  Wearing a burqa is not a religious issue, nor is it an issue of personal freedom - unless you're talking about the personal freedom of men.  A burqa is nothing more than a medieval chastity belt imposed on women by men.  How many of these women get a say in the situation, and how many of them enjoy being in pure black on a 90 degree summer day?


True, but it's still pretty much a personal choice. If a Muslim woman in the Western world wanted to truly break free from the traditional rules of Islam, they can pretty much do so, and file a restraining order against the men who are forcing them to wear a burqa.
How many of them are willing to do this? Well, it all goes back to the issue of personal choice. So any woman who wants to wear a burqa should have the freedom to do so, unless it interferes with the work of public authorities or puts personal & public safety in danger.





[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Brandon wrote: [/QUOTENAME]... and now the "best you can offer is Mr. Jingles? HA! He's... just pathetic.[/QUOTE]
YourValentine user not visiting Queenzone.com
registered July 27th 2001
YourValentine
Deity: 7611 posts
add to buddy list send PM

Posted: 26 Jan 10, 20:23 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

I believe that the vote on the minarets and discussions about scarf and burqua are substitute discussions because the Western countries are too scared to address the real issue: how do we want to live with a strong  and growing Muslim minority in our countries. Our culture requires tolerance against all religions but we do not see much tolerance in Muslim majority countries and in the Muslim communities in our own countries. We do not hear much criticism from Muslims when people are killed or threatened because they wrote some unwanted books, filmed an anti-Islam film or drew some Mohammad comics. Instead we hear a lot of applause. We feel that our freedom of speech is being threatened by the Muslim minority and for fear of being politically incorrect we do not dare to defend it.

It has not been so long ago that we freed ourselves from the rule of Christian churches and now we do not want to see other churches oppressing people in our countries ("we" is the agnostic part of the population). I do not see why Muslims should not have minarets and mosques but I do not want Turkish Imams (there are virtually no German Imams in my country!) in my country who are controlled by the Turkish government. I do not want a parallel society in my country who does not respect the constitution and the principle values of my country. It's obvious that not all Muslims are fundamentalist and Islamists and we must be fair and open.minded but we also must have the courage to address the integration issue. I do not care if someone calls me a racist because I think it's middle-age when our daughters have female teachers who wear a scarf or even a burqua. Women have fought for centuries to have equal rights and I would not want that challenged by any church. Teachers in non-religious public schools should not wear scarf or burqua, that can be required by law imo. On the other hand I think a law that tells women they cannot wear a burqua in public is absurd. How is such a law supposed to be enforced and what is the legal basis of such a law? It's hard to believe that the public feels so offended that the right of the Muslim woman to wear whatever she wears can be "outvoted".


I do not want any google ads here.

magicalfreddiemercury user not visiting Queenzone.com
magicalfreddiemercury
Deity: 2693 posts
add to buddy list send PM

Posted: 26 Jan 10, 20:45 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote



YourValentine wrote:

On the other hand I think a law that tells women they cannot wear a burqua in public is absurd. How is such a law supposed to be enforced and what is the legal basis of such a law? It's hard to believe that the public feels so offended that the right of the Muslim woman to wear whatever she wears can be "outvoted".

What I find interesting is the argument from some that by hoping to stop what's seen as extremism by forbidding girls to wear the burqa, many girls have felt forced to leave public school to enroll in new, private Muslim schools.




"The others don't like my interviews. And frankly, I don't care much for theirs." ~ Freddie Mercury



YourValentine user not visiting Queenzone.com
registered July 27th 2001
YourValentine
Deity: 7611 posts
add to buddy list send PM

Posted: 26 Jan 10, 21:21 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Actually, I think their parents decided that the students should go to private schools. There are not so many private Muslim schools because they are under state supervision like any other school. In Germany students can wear the scarf - I do not think there are many students wearing a burqua. There are other problems: Muslim fathers do not want their daughters to take part in the swimming lessons, many fathers try to avoid to send their daughters to school at all.  Over the years German judges have started to enforce the law on Muslim families. While the girls can wear whole-body swimsuits they must take part in the swimming lessons like all other students. Religion is not accepted as a reason to stay away. It's very hard for the girls to live between the cultures when their families are totally unwilling to adopt the lifestyle of the country into which they emigrated.


I do not want any google ads here.

JoxerTheDeityPirate user not visiting Queenzone.com
JoxerTheDeityPirate
Deity: 6272 posts
add to buddy list send PM

Posted: 27 Jan 10, 04:58 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

the easy way would be to ban every single religous symbol of every single faith,problem solved then.
never happen though,unfortunately.


isnt innuendo an italian suppository?

im gonna ride the wild wind!

its_a_hard_life wrote:you nutcase you rule!

joxer replies: but in a nice way :-]

pittrek user not visiting Queenzone.com
pittrek
Deity: 10070 posts
add to buddy list send PM

Posted: 27 Jan 10, 05:48 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote







YourValentine wrote:



I believe that the vote on the minarets and discussions about scarf and burqua are substitute discussions because the Western countries are too scared to address the real issue: how do we want to live with a strong  and growing Muslim minority in our countries. Our culture requires tolerance against all religions but we do not see much tolerance in Muslim majority countries and in the Muslim communities in our own countries. We do not hear much criticism from Muslims when people are killed or threatened because they wrote some unwanted books, filmed an anti-Islam film or drew some Mohammad comics. Instead we hear a lot of applause. We feel that our freedom of speech is being threatened by the Muslim minority and for fear of being politically incorrect we do not dare to defend it.

It has not been so long ago that we freed ourselves from the rule of Christian churches and now we do not want to see other churches oppressing people in our countries ("we" is the agnostic part of the population). I do not see why Muslims should not have minarets and mosques but I do not want Turkish Imams (there are virtually no German Imams in my country!) in my country who are controlled by the Turkish government. I do not want a parallel society in my country who does not respect the constitution and the principle values of my country. It's obvious that not all Muslims are fundamentalist and Islamists and we must be fair and open.minded but we also must have the courage to address the integration issue. I do not care if someone calls me a racist because I think it's middle-age when our daughters have female teachers who wear a scarf or even a burqua. Women have fought for centuries to have equal rights and I would not want that challenged by any church. Teachers in non-religious public schools should not wear scarf or burqua, that can be required by law imo. On the other hand I think a law that tells women they cannot wear a burqua in public is absurd. How is such a law supposed to be enforced and what is the legal basis of such a law? It's hard to believe that the public feels so offended that the right of the Muslim woman to wear whatever she wears can be "outvoted".



It's definitely not racism (we are all the same race), more like xenophobia, and it's absolutely logical. "Logical" doesn't mean "correct", of course :-)

You are right, European (and other) politicians are trying to solve the effects instead of the causes. Millions of people worldwide are afraid of Muslims, and most of them have actually never seen a living Muslim :-) It's also the fault of modern media, where after 9/11 Muslims were shown only negatively, as terrorists and fanatics, but statistically terrorists are an insignificant part of the Muslim community, something similar as christian terrorists or maybe atheist terrorists ...
I was born in a town with a medical school visited also by muslim students, so I'm used to meet Muslims since I've been a child and never head a problem with them. The main problems with (mostly) muslim immigrants in other countries is that they are not fully integrated into the majority, simply because the majority doesn't want them. A proper integration is the only possible solution. OR to prohibit ALL migrations, but that would lead us back to 18. century.

You wrote about cases like Muhammad caricatures, or anti-Islam movies and the violent acts by some Muslims, but you don't write about Christian priests who burned Harry Potter books because they are encouraging to practice black magic.

Sorry if I'm too chaotic but what I tried to say is

1) All fanatics are dangerous, no matter which God do they believe in.
2) Nobody should care about somebody's religion (or atheism), sexual orientation, cultural habits, fashion ...
3) All we should care about are LAWS. EVERYBODY who wants to live in country X should obey the laws of country X. If something is fully legal in country Y, and illegal in country X, nobody can do it in country X
4) A teacher with a burqa belongs to a religious school, NOT TO A PUBLIC SCHOOL.


I hope at least 50% of the gibberish I wrote is understandable to native speakers :-)






FriedChicken user not visiting Queenzone.com

Deity: 10641 posts
add to buddy list send PM

Posted: 27 Jan 10, 05:53 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

I don't have a problem with civilians wearing religious symbols. Since they aren't bothering anyone with it.

Also, if christians can have their churches, jews can have their synagoges. Give the muslims their mosques.

I do have a problem with religion in schools. Fortunatly we don't have that problem in The Netherlands, but it's a problem in a lot of other countries (USA, UK etc)


"On the first day Pim & Niek created a heavenly occupation. Pim & Niek blessed it and named it 'Loosch'."



(Genesis 1:1)
pittrek user not visiting Queenzone.com
pittrek
Deity: 10070 posts
add to buddy list send PM

Posted: 27 Jan 10, 05:58 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote



Sir GH wrote:































































magicalfreddiemercury wrote:































Or do you feel these laws/ideas cross the line by inhibiting religious and personal freedoms?






























































































































































































































Absolutely not.  Wearing a burqa is not a religious issue, nor is it an issue of personal freedom - unless you're talking about the personal freedom of men.  A burqa is nothing more than a medieval chastity belt imposed on women by men.  How many of these women get a say in the situation, and how many of them enjoy being in pure black on a 90 degree summer day?

In Canada, they proposed a bill to require all women to reveal their faces when voting, just so the folks in charge could be sure of the person's identity... but unfortunately it was thrown out.  France is right on the money with their stance, and I hope this mentality spreads.

These are not our cultural values, and never will be.  If these people don't like it, then they should stay in their home countries and practice it there.  If we western folk visit certain countries, we are required by law to dress according to their customs.  Why should we be any different when they come here?  The 21st century west should have no place for these outdated, misogynistic practices.

It depends on which country are you talking about. The situation differs from country to country. There are countries where a woman can be beaten up for "dressing like a hooker" and there are countries where women can walk on streets almost naked and nobody cares :-)







YourValentine user not visiting Queenzone.com
registered July 27th 2001
YourValentine
Deity: 7611 posts
add to buddy list send PM

Posted: 27 Jan 10, 07:17 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Your comments make perfect sense to me, pittrek. It really depends on the situation. In Germany Turkish people moved into the country in the 1970s when cheap labour was needed - low qualified workers who did the jobs Germans did not want. Before Turkish workers were hired we had Italian and Portuguese "guest workers". The Italian and Portuguese workers either returned to their homelands or became German citizens integratiing into the society with no problems. The Turks, however, stayed and never integrated all the same. This issue was ignored for decades by the German government - Germany not being an immigration country at ll, when in fact it already was!

In the first place it was the fault of the German society not to care about this minority in the country and just hoping there won't be an integration issue. But now we have 3rd generation Turkish people who still do not speak any German. While a minority is well integrated like probably your medical students (and nobody cares if they are Muslim, Kurds or Christians) , the majority has established a parallel society refusing to teach their kids proper German and unwilling to become a part within the society rather than outside. 30% of Turkish origin young people are school drop outs, 25 % of all Turkish origin people live on social welfare and are unemployed. Most of these people are Muslims and their religioius leaders are sent to the country by the Turkish government which has not proven to have much respect for democracy or other religions  and people (see the persecution of the Kurds in Turkey). Of course most Muslims just want to live in peace and raise their kids in a safe environment but how can we know the intentions of people who are not even willing to learn the language of the country they have been living in for 3 generations. We are certainly just as xenophobic as any other nation but the collective German guilt complex kicks in immediately when Turkish people complain that they are discriminated because German teachers do not learn the Turkish language to provide for better school results for their kids. After three generations it is up to the immigrants to make an effort to succeed in this society and not the other way round imo.

And I have not even touched issues like forced marriages, "honour murders", import of non-German speaking wives (because the women who were raised in Germany are not submissive enough for many Turkish men), Islamistic cells and sleepers which are rare and far between but still very serious problems.


I do not want any google ads here.

pittrek user not visiting Queenzone.com
pittrek
Deity: 10070 posts
add to buddy list send PM

Posted: 27 Jan 10, 08:01 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote


... But now we have 3rd generation Turkish people who still do not speak any German ...


Exactly THAT is the problem, and that's what the governments should care about. Education, employment, integration .
It's sad that instead of it they are solving the effects and not causes.

But that's how politicians are  :-)