Forums > Queen - Serious Discussion > New Releases and March of the Black Queen Surprise

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strangefrontier user not visiting Queenzone.com
strangefrontier
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Posted: 14 Mar 11, 18:26 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Well I have taken the plunge and purchased the new remastered releases and Deep Cuts Volume 1 and I must say that overall I am pleased with the remastering and the snippets on the bonus discs. I haven't had chance to listen to them all yet in detail but I must say that the first album in particular sounds great, and an improvement to the excellent Hollywood release of 91. The backing vocals on GKR and TNCD in particular are a fantastic improvement.

The highlights for me of the bonus tracks is the extended ending to SSOR, the acapella of BBTLB and the truly spectacular live rendition of YTMBA from Hyde Park. Running through the Deep Cuts album I was dissapointed that Tenement Funster / Flick Of The Wrist / Lilly of The Valley are not the stand alone versions but as they appear on SHA. Lily of The Valley track starts again with 'baby you've been had' from FOTW!!!

Surprise of the day was the ending to MOTBQ on Deep cuts. I was expecting a fade out where FHLI begins and not the soaring backing vocals outro as appears here...very nicely done. Ogre Battle also benefits from an extended gong outro and again, not fading in to the Fairy Feller.

Do I regret buying these...not judging by the first listen. These are an improvement on what has come before forgetting the DTS mix of ANATO. I hope and pray that one day we will have 5.1 mixes of all the albums...dream on!!

Dean

rhyeking user not visiting Queenzone.com
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Posted: 15 Mar 11, 09:28 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Thanks, Dean!

"The March Of The Black Queen" and "Ogre Battle" were the two most significant reasons I'd buy Deep Cuts (that and my completist nature wouldn't ever let me not buy it at some point). It's great to know that some care went into these two tracks being proper stand-alone, non-segued versions. A fadeout would have been the bare minimum of acceptability, but "clean" single tracks is almost more than I ever hoped for or expected.

I have to wait till May to get my copy, living in Canada, but it's good to have another thing to look forward to in addition to the Deluxe Editions.

rhyeking user not visiting Queenzone.com
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Posted: 15 Mar 11, 12:08 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Sorry for the double reply, but here is the Deep Cuts "Black Queen" on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eC9HUEuLlYo

and "Ogre Battle":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-m-Q-ti9syY

The Fonz user not visiting Queenzone.com

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Posted: 15 Mar 11, 18:49 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Certainly sounds better to me.

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Posted: 18 Mar 11, 17:09 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

It must be just me then, but I thought the ending of MOTBQ was very badly executed.  There's a gap before the last "aaahhh" and it sounds like it's just been "dropped in".

..and I agree about the SHA trilogy - if it's so important to play them consecutively, make them one track.  If they're on a compilation like this, they should be separate.

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Posted: 18 Mar 11, 19:14 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Agree with PG, sounds contrived and cut and paste-y.

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Posted: 19 Mar 11, 17:35 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Yes the end of MOTBQ sounds tacked on. Very disappointing. There must be a master tape of the original ending somewhere.
However I'm quite pleased with the end of OB.
The SHA trilogy, though - very sloppy.

strangefrontier user not visiting Queenzone.com
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Posted: 20 Mar 11, 10:47 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Well I have read the comments on this thread and have revisited the MOTBQ ending many times. I think I may have been still in shock of hearing a stand alone version when I left my initial charitable comment! Maybe a better way to have described it would have been to say, nice idea, poorly executed!

Dean

rhyeking user not visiting Queenzone.com
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Posted: 20 Mar 11, 16:36 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

I think part of the problem isn't that the vocals sound tacked on, I don't believe they are or that any editing was done them after 1973, let alone for this collection. What is jarring is the fact that the instruments cut out at the end, which I think are only drums and piano in that last 2 seconds. They simple vanish, rather than the notes being allowed to finish. It's hard to say if that's how they appear on the master, but I think that's what's throwing people off, the piano note underneath being cut off.

Also, our ears expect to hear one more note, too, under the highest "AHHH"s at the end, and without it, it sounds weird. On the album, that note is achieved with the first note of FHLI, which comes in right there. Here, though, we're left sort of hanging, waiting for a note that doesn't come, and the vocal then sound unsupported, like they're left dangling.

Here is the count for the end of the song:

"Now it's time to be Gone!   [La La La]       Forever! [Forever!]"  [La-L-La La Laaaa  Ahahahahahaha   ahhhh  Ahhhh  AHHHHH!
    1      2     3      4         1          2         3     4   1     2        3     4        1       2     3       4      1       2      3     4       1     2     3    4   1   2  3  4
Instruments------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->

All that being said, I do like this stand alone version.

Negative Creep user not visiting Queenzone.com

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Posted: 20 Mar 11, 17:42 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

rhyeking wrote: I think part of the problem isn't that the vocals sound tacked on, I don't believe they are or that any editing was done them after 1973, let alone for this collection.
That is definitely an edit done especially for this compilation - that is a digital edit, not analogue.

They will have taken Ludwig's new remaster and then done a new mix of the backing vocals (easily done - Justin Shirley Smith etc have access to all their digital transfers of multitracks). Shove those 2 stereo tracks into Audition, mute the backing vocal track until the last bit , fade out what you don't want on the finished remaster and bob's your uncle. Doesn't cost anything to do.

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Posted: 20 Mar 11, 18:00 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

I'm sure there's no way you could actually have known this, but Bob is, in fact, the name of one of my uncles. I'm not kidding. :-)  I know it's a another saying for "and there you go!", but since it's true in my case, it's always funny when people say that.

As for whether they remixed the ending...(shrug)

I still think the reason it bugs people is the aforementioned dropout of the instruments. It would sound nicer for that last 1st beat to appear with a piano note, to punctuate the vocals. Most popular music in 4/4 time will have that last 1st beat, sometimes the 2nd as well.

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Posted: 20 Mar 11, 21:27 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Whatever the case may be,  a missed opportunity due to shoddy workmanship.  As Roger says, it's his legacy to fuck up, if he doesn't care, why should we?

rhyeking user not visiting Queenzone.com
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Posted: 20 Mar 11, 21:50 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Honestly, and I know this is a point of contention, so don't bite my head off for disagreeing, I don't think any remixing was done. I think the master drops out the way we hear it and that's what we get.

IF (and I emphasis that) that is the case, what would you have them do? Should they have added or remixed to make it sound "better"? I'd rather have to the raw track, warts and all, rather than having them "fix" it. I'm also glad they didn't just fade out on the FHLI intro. This is something unique and, to my ear, is as it was on the master.

Lastly, why re-invent the wheel, so to speak? Why go to the trouble to remix the end (assuming those who believe it are correct) when the master would have the complete, uncut performance and that could simply be transfered over, as was done with "Ogre Battle" (and "Tenement Funster," and "Flick Of The Wrist," and "Lily Of The Valley" and "Funny How Love Is")?

Call me naive or whatever, but I don't believe there is remixing here. If there is, I still enjoy the end result, hence my shrug. I hope no one took that as indifference to others' opinions. I have enjoyed this dialogue and respect the other thoughts expressed. I will keep it in mind.

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Posted: 21 Mar 11, 05:58 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Sad to hear that they did not create a real convincing ending to "March of the Black Queen". That makes this release completely unimportant for collectors.

The clean ending of "Ogre Battle" is not that exciting. It was always there - it's what you hear backwards playing in the beginning and you can easily reverse it and then edit it to the end....

Ron user not visiting Queenzone.com

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Posted: 21 Mar 11, 07:50 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Has anyone already tried to merge this version with the unique Funny How Love Is standalone from a 3" cd-single (which runs 2:52 min). Cannot recall where this version can be found, but I think it was the German or Japanese 3" cd-single set.

If they merge perfectly and sound like the ones on Queen II, then you know that the TMOTBQ edit was done correctly.. or not?


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rhyeking user not visiting Queenzone.com
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Posted: 21 Mar 11, 07:58 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

On your advice, Ron, I just did, with Audacity. It sounds like the album version to me.

As with Ron, I invite others to try it too.

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Posted: 21 Mar 11, 11:30 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Not sure where this discussion is going. It's nothing to do with anything being done "right". That isn't a vintage mix - it's so obvious from listening to it. Comparing it to a standalone mix of FHLI is doesn't prove or disprove anything - we're talking about them taking an instrumental vocal mix and basically pasting it onto the end.... the actual vocal isn't going to sound any different to the album version if mixed appropriately, it just won't have any instrumentation beneath it therefore creating a clean ending.

I'm sure vintage stand alone mixes existed for every track they've produced - that doesn't mean they still have them or if they do, that they utilized them. Why did they originally use the album version of Tenement Funster on Queens' First EP etc etc? Do you think they dug out a stand alone mix and also got Ludwig to remaster it just for this compilation? No chance.

If you believe it's a fully original stand alone version of the track - it's fine. Honestly! lol But it quite clearly ISN'T.

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Posted: 21 Mar 11, 12:26 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

If the "Black Queen" finale still sounds like the album when the clean version of FHLI is added at the correct point, does that not prove it was neither remixed nor pasted on? If it were remixed, it would sound different. If it were pasted, it would sound edited, even with FHLI.

No, having done this test, I'm convinced this is likely how it appears on the master.

With one exception. It's possible the original performance had Freddie and Roger continue playing after the point their instruments are dropped out of the album mix. However, as that was not part of the track, nor intended to be, so removing it is faithful to the original.

I honestly feel what we have is a case of our ears playing tricks on us. The instruments vanishing leaves us to hear the last vocal part all by itself, which we have not heard that way before, as FHLI's intro is there on the album. Unsupported, the vocals sound weird.

Anyway, I'm repeating myself and I think we're going in circles of "yes it is," "no it's not," so I'm going to leave this thread alone for a while, unless something new comes up. It is fun discussing this stuff, though.

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Posted: 01 Apr 11, 23:58 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

**********************************************************
rhyeking wrote:

I have to wait till May to get my copy, living in Canada, but it's good to have another thing to look forward to in addition to the Deluxe Editions. *****************************************************************

Rhye, I, too, am from Canada. If you're waiting to get the deluxe editions over here, you may as well get them from Amazon.co.uk, as it is a cheaper alternative to getting it at any HMV, Futureshop, Best Buy or even amazon.ca.... With shipping, each set will cost less than 20$CDN (no tax) - when they release them here, it may go for as much as 29.99+tax depending where in Canada you live. Remember,  2 versions will be available - a standard and a "deluxe" - standard will likely start at 14.99 and deluxe might start at 23.99 (if we're lucky).

In the UK - they don't seem to charge that much more for a double or triple disc set (for deluxe albums) - pricing seems to be set at the price of an album (8-9 pounds) plus cost to produce the additional disc (s). In Canada and the US, we normally price per disc included in the set, regardless of whether it's a deluxe version, double disc album, or a box set. 

To avoid any customs charges - duty, brokerage, etc... keep each order a relatively low amount before shipping - normally any order @ 50$ once converted into CDN (roughly 30 pounds) or less, will stay below the radar. So don't buy any more than 3 at a time.

You'll get it sooner and for less.

But for deep cuts, GH1 and GH2 (if you plan to get those 2 for completion purposes) may come to less if you wait for it over here - those are expensive in the UK (at about the same as what the deluxe versions go for).

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Posted: 02 Apr 11, 12:45 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

I believe Rhyeking is correct in MOTBQ. If I dropped out instruments from my mix of a song to leave only a set of vocals like that at the end, it may very well sound tacked on. However, in context with all the instrumentation, it will always sound far more pleasing to the ear. Also, having listened to the Deep Cuts mix, it sounds perfectly natural.