Forums > Queen - General Discussion > Live Remixing - The Lesser Of Two Evils??

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Thistleboy1980 user not visiting Queenzone.com
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Posted: 04 Jun 11, 08:29 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

If it's already been touched on before, I'm sorry - it's just that there has been so much documentary talk it's been hard to keep up:)

Anyway - after watching Part 1 of Days Of Our Lives again, I was reminded that I meant to ask earlier if anyone noticed just how nice the intro of Bo Rhap was in the Hyde Park '76 clip? 

Obviously, it has been tarted up quite a bit - but, is this the way to go? I mean, it sounds great and all, but it is not a true representation of the show that night.  However, if it means we may get a release of the it on DVD, do we care  if it sounds different in places? 

So, a live release with "false" documentation of the real sound or life without an official copy - which is the lesser of the two evils?


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Posted: 04 Jun 11, 10:02 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

I'm not sure what the issue is here.

Short of a band adding elements that weren't present on the night, like studio overdubs, redoing a live mix is no sin. Not to mention the fact the house mix (what the audience hears), though it may be recorded, is not normally considered a definitive mix. 

Before someone shouts out, "Yes, it is! That's what they played and that's what the audience heard on the night!", you need to consider that the house mix is done with the acoustics of the venue in mind, plus it has to battle the crowd noise. If the individual elements (drums, guitar, piano, vocals, backing vocals, etc.) were recorded and that allows for the band to mix the album later in a studio, using the original elements, then we're still getting the performance made on the night.

There's also the issue that nothing will ever accurately reproduce the audio heard by the audience on the night, because as balanced as a the house mix was during the performance, no two audience members heard exactly the same thing, because of where they were sitting and where the speakers were positioned. The relative "best" sound will always be nearest the mixing console, as that's where the guy is doing the mix and he'll do it based on what he hears from that position. The audience in the upper deck bleachers aren't hearing what he's hearing (or even what the audience twenty feet away are hearing). 

I guess it could come down to a listener's perception, that it doesn't feel live anymore now that it's been cleaned up and sounds nice and clear. I know people who equate "live" with "rough and gritty," preferring it polished studio work, claiming it has an energy, and they need to feel they're there.

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Posted: 04 Jun 11, 10:13 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

What I mean is the audio in the doc is NOT from Hyde Park, IMO.  It's not just been cleaned up, it has been dubbed over using something else!  Like the way the crack in Fred's voice during Fat Bottomed Girls at Milton Keynes was lol

Would you want a release of HP if they did that throughout? Or would you care, if it meant the full, clean footage was released?


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Posted: 04 Jun 11, 10:34 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Swapping and re-arranging the audio, such as taking the audio from a different performance, was exactly the exception noted in my previous post.

I don't mind the odd small tinker, or under certain circumstances a significant alteration (such as removing the 15 seconds of silence from the CD release of Live At The Bowl, where Brian's cable cut out), but in general I like "warts and all" live releases. I don't like that the same CD pared down Freddie's "It's just a bloody record..." speech before "Staying Power", but I can live with it.

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Posted: 04 Jun 11, 13:22 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Thistleboy 1980 wrote:

What I mean is the audio in the doc is NOT from Hyde Park, IMO.  It's not just been cleaned up, it has been dubbed over using something else!  Like the way the crack in Fred's voice during Fat Bottomed Girls at Milton Keynes was lol

Would you want a release of HP if they did that throughout? Or would you care, if it meant the full, clean footage was released?


Did I miss something ? What makes you think that the Bohemian Rhapsody part is overdubbed ?

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Posted: 04 Jun 11, 14:25 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

pittrek wrote:

Did I miss something ? What makes you think that the Bohemian Rhapsody part is overdubbed ? =============================================================================================

Difficult for me to put into words Peter as I'm not technically minded like you or say, Gregsynth, but it just sounds completely different, IMO.  Check back, you might hear what I mean!


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Posted: 04 Jun 11, 16:43 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

I don't think it's even in question, given the option of a getting new footage released far outweighs wether the sound is representative of what was heard on the night. Naturally I'd like a reasonable representation but if Freddie was off key for large parts I'd settle for it being "fixed" for the sake of a new DVD/CD.

In addition I wasn't there anyway (2 months old at the time) so I wouldn't know any better, and the bootlegs from this gig are poor. Anybody who has an issue about the sound is more than welcome to put back the sound from the bootleg.

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Posted: 04 Jun 11, 19:24 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

I thought HP sounded good, but I didn't think that it was sourced from a different night....is this really true??

on a related note; I thought the another one bites the dust footage from Montreal 81 sounded more alive than the dvd - am I mistaken?

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Posted: 04 Jun 11, 20:56 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

e-man wrote: I thought HP sounded good, but I didn't think that it was sourced from a different night....is this really true??

on a related note; I thought the another one bites the dust footage from Montreal 81 sounded more alive than the dvd - am I mistaken? =============================================================================================

I am not 100% certain about HP, but it sure does sound different to me.  Where's Greg or Lostman when you need them lol?

RE Montreal, yeah I got that too...


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Posted: 04 Jun 11, 23:03 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

I don't know why we have to settle for either. I'm assuming nowadays it's the remaining members' call as to whether certain material is released officially but wouldn't you think they'd know their fans well enough to understand why we would want it untouched? I can understand remastering for the sake of IMPROVING quality, like hearing the audio from the band more and less from the crowd. But as far overdubbing and adding and removing shit, I'd rather stay away from it altogether. I mean, it's not nearly as thrilling sitting there watching a show and wondering which parts you hear are from that particular show.


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Posted: 05 Jun 11, 02:50 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

If you have good pictures but the audio is not good due to loss of contact or technical problems I don't mind, if some skilled people try to reconstruct the audio even from various sources. As long as the aim is to recreate what went missing. 

If things are added that were never there, I think it's wrong.

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Posted: 05 Jun 11, 02:58 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Right, and You Take My Breath Away was also taken from a different show, right?

C'mon. People often think HP was a weak gig by Queen, judging from the horrible bootleg video. Freddie's voice was in great shape during the little mini tour. Just listen to the Edinburgh recording from a few days earlier. Of course they were nervous, but Freddie delivered a great show overall.

The excellent sounding snippets may be a bit overwhelming, but I don't think that part has been overdubbed. Listen carefully, it matches the bootleg video version. Just because we have that part now in excellent quality doesn't mean there has been tampered with.


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Posted: 05 Jun 11, 08:12 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Rick wrote: Right, and You Take My Breath Away was also taken from a different show, right?

C'mon. People often think HP was a weak gig by Queen, judging from the horrible bootleg video. Freddie's voice was in great shape during the little mini tour. Just listen to the Edinburgh recording from a few days earlier. Of course they were nervous, but Freddie delivered a great show overall.

The excellent sounding snippets may be a bit overwhelming, but I don't think that part has been overdubbed. Listen carefully, it matches the bootleg video version. Just because we have that part now in excellent quality doesn't mean there has been tampered with.
=============================================================================================

I have a reasonably good audience recording from the HP show which just about matches the audio from the bootleg video, Freddie sounds really different on both of these compared to the snippet used on Days last week.  For me, it has been dubbed.  It is not just cleaner, it sounds different.  I'm not saying it would be like that for the whole track, as it was just a snippet used for the doc, but it does sound different.  You Take My Breath Away is the same performance, just cleaner sounding.


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Posted: 05 Jun 11, 09:05 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

I've listened to the audience recording, though not had the chance to compare side by side. But I'd say it's just a re-mix and not overdubbed. And that's coming from possibly the most sceptical person on here.

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Posted: 05 Jun 11, 16:51 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Bad Seed wrote: I've listened to the audience recording, though not had the chance to compare side by side. But I'd say it's just a re-mix and not overdubbed. And that's coming from possibly the most sceptical person on here.
=============================================================================================

Hahahaha, I just discovered amongst a load of boots I forgot I had yet another version of the HP show, an audience recording which was simply labelled "remaster"....and yep, it sounds like it is the same vocals after all - which means that they have made a really good job of cleaning up the audio from what I heard in the doc, so much so I was fooled into believing it may have been dubbed.  In that case then, excellent - hoping this indicates a future release!!!


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Posted: 05 Jun 11, 17:48 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

pittrek wrote:

Thistleboy 1980 wrote: What I mean is the audio in the doc is NOT from Hyde Park, IMO.  It's not just been cleaned up, it has been dubbed over using something else!  Like the way the crack in Fred's voice during Fat Bottomed Girls at Milton Keynes was lol

Would you want a release of HP if they did that throughout? Or would you care, if it meant the full, clean footage was released?

Did I miss something ? What makes you think that the Bohemian Rhapsody part is overdubbed ?
--------------
I second what pittrek said... for me the audio IS from hyde park (on fact it has the same "rare" vocal by freddie in the first lines of bohemian rhapsody) only has many reverb in the vocal track... don´t forget they have the multiracks of the show and if they want (and if they have the money) they could do amazing things... we only have an awful "video feed" mono (and ultra worn-out vhs source) copy of the gig audio...
Well that´s my point of view...


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Posted: 05 Jun 11, 18:04 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

MERQRY wrote:

I second what pittrek said... for me the audio IS from hyde park (on fact it has the same "rare" vocal by freddie in the first lines of bohemian rhapsody) only has many reverb in the vocal track... don´t forget they have the multiracks of the show and if they want (and if they have the money) they could do amazing things... we only have an awful "video feed" mono (and ultra worn-out vhs source) copy of the gig audio...
Well that´s my point of view...
=============================================================================================

Yep, see above!  But there is the audience recording too!!


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Posted: 05 Jun 11, 21:12 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Live remixing and/or splicing from other shows is not a problem these days thanks to advent of Pro-Tools. KISS and Thin Lizzy all did studio albums DISGUISED as live albums. Live Killers had obvious overdubs as did Wembley. 

What Queen did with remixing the recent live projects released since Queen On Fire At the Bowl was reminiscent to the approach done on Pink Floyd's PULSE and Is There Anybody Out There? The Wall Live 1980-81 albums. If any bad notes were hit on performance they wanted on the album, they would go to another show to replace any bad notes hit (20 shows were recorded for PULSE and all London shows for Is There Anybody Out There?). Queen I think recorded multiple shows on the 1982 tour so the fixed "locality" may have come from Japan, either that or auto-tune. The remixing done for Hyde Park was excellent as well as Earls Court, bring them on.


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Posted: 05 Jun 11, 22:41 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

The BoRhap section on the Days documentary is NOT overdubbed.  Freddie sings the line a bit differently, clearly out of the excitement of seeing 150,000 people for the first time... over ten times the number of their biggest show prior.

It's identical to the audience recording.


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Posted: 05 Jun 11, 23:01 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

*************************************************************************

Thistleboy 1980 wrote: What I mean is the audio in the doc is NOT from Hyde Park, IMO.  It's not just been cleaned up, it has been dubbed over using something else!  Like the way the crack in Fred's voice during Fat Bottomed Girls at Milton Keynes was lol

Would you want a release of HP if they did that throughout? Or would you care, if it meant the full, clean footage was released?
***************************************************************************

If Queen concerts were released with all the fuckups - ie. with the Milton Keynes "locality" screech - I wouldn't enjoy hearing it over and over again - Brian May wouldn't enjoy everyone hearing it over and over again - and Freddie Mercury, the uber-perfectionist wouldn't have enjoyed everyone hearing it over and over again. When you make a mistake - and you've noticed it - you should correct it.

So if they're correcting mistakes with overdubs - good stuff, I'm all for it! If you want a true representation, find a bootleg or a time machine.

The main goal of listening to a live show is to listen to variations of a band's interpreation of their own songs - not the fuckups.