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The Real Wizard user not visiting Queenzone.com
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Posted: 24 Jul 11, 14:04 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Two threads about a dead singer, but nothing about the biggest Scandinavian mass shooting since WWII.  Same thing on facebook.  Dozens of people on my friend's list have posted about Amy Winehouse, but nothing about Norway.  But I'm not the least bit surprised.  When ever will we get our priorities straight in this world?

Here are my thoughts..

The killer (whom the media is still calling a "suspect" for good measure) is a CHRISTIAN TERRORIST.  But in the media, and even in public, you can't say that.

The day before the shootings, the youth movement (labour party) denounced the Israeli occupation of Gaza, and they also put their voices behind the upcoming UN vote on recognizing a Palestinian state.  The killer was a Christian Zionist who said he wanted a revolution, so we can easily put two and two together here.  But the media won't do that for you - you have to do it yourself.

Less than 1% of recent European terrorism acts and attempts are related to Islam, while most are related to separatists (source - http://www.consilium.europa.eu/uedocs/cmsUpload/TE-SAT%202010.pdf) - but it's only Islamic terrorism that the media preaches about.  But this time it's a Christian terrorist.  Timothy McVeigh was a Christian terrorist too, and the media covered that one up.  Ten bucks says the same will happen here.

On that cheerful note, looking forward to everyone's thoughts on this pretty substantial situation.


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Posted: 24 Jul 11, 14:48 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

again,religion seems to be at the heart of the norway tragedy.
seems we cant have a peacefull world,such a massive loss of life,and all so young.
even countrys like norway seem to have religion troubles..
on the other matter,,,,,never liked her or her music..
and was a car crash waiting to happen..
and giving her god like status on the news,rubish.
on a news report i saw,there were flowers laid along with bottle of vodka and malibu..........sums her up.

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Posted: 24 Jul 11, 14:57 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

SKy news said that the "suspect" was infact a Neo-nazi and that he will explain his decisions in court. Either way, he is still an evil bastard.


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Posted: 24 Jul 11, 15:02 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Perfect, a convenient cover-up ... the word Nazi will get people's attention and the lies will begin.


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Posted: 24 Jul 11, 15:51 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Sir GH wrote: Two threads about a dead singer, but nothing about the biggest Scandinavian mass shooting since WWII.  Same thing on facebook.  Dozens of people on my friend's list have posted about Amy Winehouse, but nothing about Norway.  But I'm not the least bit surprised.  When ever will we get our priorities straight in this world?

Here are my thoughts..

The killer (whom the media is still calling a "suspect" for good measure) is a CHRISTIAN TERRORIST.  But in the media, and even in public, you can't say that.

The day before the shootings, the youth movement (labour party) denounced the Israeli occupation of Gaza, and they also put their voices behind the upcoming UN vote on recognizing a Palestinian state.  The killer was a Christian Zionist who said he wanted a revolution, so we can easily put two and two together here.  But the media won't do that for you - you have to do it yourself.

Less than 1% of recent European terrorism acts and attempts are related to Islam, while most are related to separatists (source - http://www.consilium.europa.eu/uedocs/cmsUpload/TE-SAT%202010.pdf) - but it's only Islamic terrorism that the media preaches about.  But this time it's a Christian terrorist.  Timothy McVeigh was a Christian terrorist too, and the media covered that one up.  Ten bucks says the same will happen here.

On that cheerful note, looking forward to everyone's thoughts on this pretty substantial situation. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There has been huge coverage of this on UK television and while, at first, analysts thought this was another Mumbai (Islamic fundamentalist terror is real and not a media conspiracy) very quickly it was reported that the killer is a fundamentalist Christian who is anti-Islamic and against the multiculturalism that defines many European countries including Norway. I respect your suspicion of the media but in this case media coverage has been, I think, fair.


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Posted: 24 Jul 11, 16:07 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

so,whats the difference between a christian fundamentalist and an islamic fundamentalist?

if it was the latter,the US would already be invading the country by now or at least making military threats and imposing sanctions...double standards as usual,cant go against the god squad.


isnt innuendo an italian suppository?

im gonna ride the wild wind!

its_a_hard_life wrote:you nutcase you rule!

joxer replies: but in a nice way :-]

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Posted: 24 Jul 11, 16:17 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Holly2003 wrote:

There has been huge coverage of this on UK television and while, at first, analysts thought this was another Mumbai (Islamic fundamentalist terror is real and not a media conspiracy) very quickly it was reported that the killer is a fundamentalist Christian who is anti-Islamic and against the multiculturalism that defines many European countries including Norway. I respect your suspicion of the media but in this case media coverage has been, I think, fair.

===================

I guess the difference is I'm in Canada - one of Israel's last few allies.


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Posted: 24 Jul 11, 16:40 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

The media coverage of the tragedy in Norway is quite extensive here - while the death of Amy Winehouse was just a headline. All sports events over the weekend started with minutes of silence for the victims in Oslo - football players wore black ribbons yesterday and today. All European leaders sent messages of condolence and solidarity to the people of Norway after this unbelievably cruel terror attack.

Apparently the suspect released a 1500 pages "manifest" describing his totally crazed and maniac "ideology" to the internet as well as a 12 minute video on YouTube. I understand that both the manifest and the video were deleted from the net after the person was identified. The lawyer of the suspect said in Nowegian TV that he does not understand the "confusing" statements of his client and is totally unable to describe the thought process of the person. From what we learn it seems that he is anti-Muslim, anti-Socialist, anti-multicultural, anti-Marxist, anti-Humanistic, anti-global., anti-capitalist. Media reported that he called himself a fundamentalist Christian as well as a Freemason which would exclude each other in my opinion. Apparently he thinks he is a legal successor of the Templars and described himself as the protagonist of the "Western European resistance" - the massacre was designed to inspire as many "nationalist sleepers" as possible. Without rushing to any judgement I think it is very possible that he is a maniac who lived in his own world without any connection to reality.

It is very depressing to read about all this maniac stuff but one thing is for sure: he is not "the devil" as man people write in their blogs - he is a human being coming from the inside the socitey and we have to live with the knowledge that people are capable of such cruelty and can pent up all this hatred without anybody really taking any notice - a very frightening idea.


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Posted: 24 Jul 11, 17:04 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Holly2003 wrote: There has been huge coverage of this on UK television and while, at first, analysts thought this was another Mumbai (Islamic fundamentalist terror is real and not a media conspiracy) very quickly it was reported that the killer is a fundamentalist Christian who is anti-Islamic and against the multiculturalism that defines many European countries including Norway. I respect your suspicion of the media but in this case media coverage has been, I think, fair.

=====

It is the same here in the US. Amy Winehouse's death has been a news banner and occasional 'in other news' topic. It's sad but her death was expected. What happened in Norway could not have been imagined, IMO. The news replayed the harrowing images repeatedly and I could swear we were watching footage from 9/11.

You know what's really sad and disturbing? As I spoke to a few people about this right after it happened, when it was assumed that attack was carried out by muslim extremists, one person actually blamed Norway. She said if the government hadn't "coddled" foreigners and their ideals, this wouldn't have happened. This is a person who would never dream of blaming her own country (the US) for 9/11 but Norway is to blame for this. ???

It's gotten to the point where normal and meaningful conversations cannot be had.

This is a tragedy and this man responsible is crazed. How no one can see the downward spiral of people like this is terrifying. But then, to go back to Amy Winehouse, she was a disaster clearly waiting to happen and no one did anything to prevent that either.


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Posted: 24 Jul 11, 17:08 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Sir GH wrote: Two threads about a dead singer, but nothing about the biggest Scandinavian mass shooting since WWII.  Same thing on facebook.  Dozens of people on my friend's list have posted about Amy Winehouse, but nothing about Norway.  But I'm not the least bit surprised.  When ever will we get our priorities straight in this world?

Here are my thoughts..

The killer (whom the media is still calling a "suspect" for good measure) is a CHRISTIAN TERRORIST.  But in the media, and even in public, you can't say that.

The day before the shootings, the youth movement (labour party) denounced the Israeli occupation of Gaza, and they also put their voices behind the upcoming UN vote on recognizing a Palestinian state.  The killer was a Christian Zionist who said he wanted a revolution, so we can easily put two and two together here.  But the media won't do that for you - you have to do it yourself.

Less than 1% of recent European terrorism acts and attempts are related to Islam, while most are related to separatists (source - http://www.consilium.europa.eu/uedocs/cmsUpload/TE-SAT%202010.pdf) - but it's only Islamic terrorism that the media preaches about.  But this time it's a Christian terrorist.  Timothy McVeigh was a Christian terrorist too, and the media covered that one up.  Ten bucks says the same will happen here.

On that cheerful note, looking forward to everyone's thoughts on this pretty substantial situation.

Good thoughts Sir GH... i thought i was fairly clued into anti-islamic stuff and how unfair that is, but i hadn't thought about it like this.  I HAD thought about it that the media were saying (shock! horror!) it wasn't islamic, and i thought that was really racist and strange -- i mean nobody said hey it wasn't an atheist, or it wasn't a buddhist.  But was it done under the guise of being on behalf of a religion?  I mean, i don't believe that an islamic suicide bomber who claims that they are doing it because of religious reasons is truely following Islam, but that its a corruption of islam, but it has been claimed that it was fighting a holy war blaa blaa.  So, is this person claiming the name of christianity as the REASON for doiing it?  And as a muslim friend of mine said -- great, so he wasn't from pakistan, he wasn't muslim, clearly the guy who just invaded and shot a ton of people is 'just a madman' not 'a terrorist' cos only WE are called 'terrorists.'  If you're not muslim and you shoot someone, your considered crazy, if you are muslim and you shoot someone, well doh, its clearly because of your religion.  At least that was the general gist of what he said.

Either way, its a tragedy...   A terrible, terrible tragedy.
(And btw, it was on my facebook)

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Posted: 24 Jul 11, 22:33 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

I think you guys are ignoring the real issues here - what WAS that guy wearing in those photos that were released of him??  Talk about a fashion nightmare.


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Posted: 25 Jul 11, 03:47 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Its just been announced through Reuters that the court hearing is to be heard behind closed doors.


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Posted: 25 Jul 11, 05:54 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Mr Mercury wrote: Its just been announced through Reuters that the court hearing is to be heard behind closed doors.

=====

Good. The more attention a person like that wants, the less he should get.


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Posted: 26 Jul 11, 05:16 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Condolences to all the victims!

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Posted: 26 Jul 11, 05:45 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

What? So now the zionist Christian was a neo-nazi?  What next? Perhaps a report that he was surely an Afro-Centric Muslim... The reports on his political ideology appear highly contradictory, perhaps he was very confused, or the media is.

I am still waiting for the mandatory gun control debate to follow, I am especially waiting for the anti-gun control people to use this as a prime example of how strict gun control is a failure. Perhaps it's just not strict enough?

Let's face it, it all sounds so very plausible to think that if the teenaged girls and boys at Utøya had also been packing heat, our gunman would have been gunned down by someone... Nordic countries need to face reality and the official birthday present given to every newborn baby should be a 9 mm handgun.

Edit. Should have looked at Fauxnews first... No word on gun control though.

http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/oreilly/index.html#/v/1078836718001/media-brand-norwegian-maniac-a-christian-extremist/?playlist_id=86923

Edit. And Glenn Beck shows he is a class act...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/norway/8660986/Norway-shooting-Glenn-Beck-compares-dead-teenagers-to-Hitler-youth.html


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Posted: 26 Jul 11, 07:09 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Condolences to the victims from my side too.

The sad thing about this is that a massacre by a Christian extremist makes him a madman, but a massacre by a Muslim makes him a terrorist.

And the funny thing about this is that I've seen more posts complaining about there being more posts about Amy Winehouse than Oslo than I've seen about Oslo.


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Posted: 26 Jul 11, 08:04 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

I would like to share with you a few points I have been researching the past two years, which appear to be confirmed by this horrendous act of mass-murder.

1.   The far-right in Europe currently exists in two entirely separate and different forms, often hostile towards one another.

The first is the traditional nazi-based far-right, like the Front National in France, Vlaams Belang in Belgium and the EDL in Britain. They are out of touch with the 'mainstream' of far-right voters, and are fighting a losing battle. However, those who *do* still subscribe to this ideology are extreme fanatics, and every single one of them is a potential danger to society. On the upside, they make up less than 3% of the population.

The second kind is, in my view, more dangerous at the moment. This new far-right is not nazi-oriented, in that they are not race thinkers. However, many, like Geert Wilders in the Netherlands, *are* national-socialists in the *literal* sense of the word. They often have strong ties to orthodox Christianity, although they are hostile towards those Christian groups that subscribe to the so-called "social gospel". All their hate is channelled towards 'communists' (which they describe so broadly that it also includes liberal democrats and all kinds of non-marxist left-wing groups), which they see as not merely in league with but synonymous to Islamists. The few studies that have been carried out show that, like extreme left-wingers, a disproportionally large number of them are fanatical believers in conspiracy theories, with Masonic conspiracies at the top.

This 'new far right', led by the Dutch and Scandinavian anti-immigrant and anti-Muslim parties, is greeted with a degree of decency by the established right, especially the right wing of the Christian Democrats (as, for instance, in the CDA of the Netherlands and the CDU/CSU in Germany). They usually denounce violence outright, though this is not necessarily true of their supporters. Anti-semitism plays no role of any importance, and a pro-Israeli agenda is no taboo, though it appears that a large number of their supporters view supporting Israel as a "necessary evil" to get to the Muslims.

2.    This second kind of far right attracts many people who would formerly have voted for moderate parties, something that is not true of the first category. Most votes for these parties are cast from regions with very small immigrant populations, suggesting that it is (economic) fear rather than (economic) reality that drives the voters. I am not sure if this also applies to other countries, but the Dutch supporters of the new far right show a striking disregard for facts and statistics: if figures or facts contradict their ideology, they are either said to be forged or are ignored all together.

3.    The new far right is, unlike the nazi-kind, *extremely* hostile towards *all* intellectuals/intellectualism. Formerly, intellectuals who subscribed to far-right views were welcomed by neo-nazis, but the new far right considers all intellectuals as the enemy.

4.    One thing that hasn't changed is that the new far right is decidedly hostile towards democracy and democratic processes. They are, by their nature, authoritarian groups, and subscribe the leadership-principle, meaning that the decisions and motives of the party leader are not to be questioned. So far, this does not seem to have broken down in any of the new far right parties, suggesting that they have capable leaders.

5.    They do not usually resort to violence, and will denounce it in public, but will not do anything to hinder it. Many of the representatives for the Dutch and Danish 'Freedom' parties have been convicted for or at least charged with acts of violence. This does not bother their electorate.

6.    Whereas the traditional far right could never count on more than about 5% of the population to support them, the new far right can count on numbers as high as 25% or even 30%. This means that a legal takeover of power by the far right, such as the NSDAP did in 1933, is a real possibility. Because of the semblance of legality, this is a far more realistic danger than a coup d'êtat.

7.    As was the case in the 1930s, but never after WWII, traditional conservative parties are quite willing to ally themselves with the new far right, in the false believe that the far right can be controlled and used for the conservatives' purposes.

8.   The new far right attempts to (and succeeds in) attract(ing) voters by combining far-right views on crime, immigration, national security and foreign policy with decidedly left-wing economic policies. However, when a choice has to be made between their economic and their social policies, they are quick to surrender the economic points.

All this combined makes me come to the conclusion that, while a resurgence of the far-right is a standard and predictable result of economic downturns and prolonged uncertainty, the danger of non-democratic regimes coming to power in Europe has not been a more realistic danger since the 1940s. The current situation absolutely dwarfs the 1970s resurgence.

The fact that disturbingly large numbers of supporters of these far-right groups actually express their *support* and *sympathy* for the Norwegian mass murderer on party-related internet forums suggests that these parties are not to be expected to oppose any violence from their right flank.


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Posted: 26 Jul 11, 08:10 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Incidently, as far as I have been able to uncover, there are only two things all the new far right supporters agree on:

1) All muslims are a threat to Western society
2) The Serbs were the good guys in the Yugoslav civil war.

The second point is especially important, because it implies what they would do if they were ever to be the majority party.


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Posted: 26 Jul 11, 12:24 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Thomas Quinn, your post was really interesting... I have tried and failed to understand politics and the ideologies of different groups, esp across the Eu, and i just can't get them straight in my head... its hard to sort out the propaganda from the truth, and to tell what is MEANT by half the stuff thats said by/about them. 
Having said that, from what i have read and studied, it does seem like the current political 'middle ground' is fairly far right.  Left seems to be becoming more right wing, apart from the extremist left groups.  I have heard the argument that all parties are moving more to the centre to gain votes, but it does seem like its more of a centre-right then actual centre.  And it is (imo) reflected in the general culture and ideology thats prevalant throughout society.  Frighteningly right-wing attitudes are creeping in more and more regarding issues like  racism, immigration, asylum seekers, medical care, care of the elderly, care of those with disabilities, etc.  I had a teacher in college who on principle won't get health insurance, and people think she's nuts.  Whether attitudes are changing or whether its just that people are expressing them more publicly, i don't know, but it is scary.
For my last social policy exam i had to study the development of social policies in britain/ireland in the last number of years, esp those that came from liberal theory.  And i found it disturbing to even read about extreme neo-liberalism.  And yet, so much of those attitudes are common still. :/

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Posted: 26 Jul 11, 12:25 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Very fascinating read, TQ.  Bleak .... but fascinating.  Thanks for that.

The world does seem to be moving to the right.  Sure, Obama is in power in the US, but it looks like the Republicans set that one up (i.e. putting the Alaska buffoon and a decrepit old man in there) so that they could blame Obama for the pending default.

Canada is moving right, and so is England ... and much of Europe.  Conservatism in itself isn't a bad thing.  Myself, I'm all in favour of fiscal conservatism, but centrist with most social issues.  But the trend seems to be - when people get scared, they move right, not left.


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