Forums > Queen - Serious Discussion > Wembley DVD - Complete Cock Up

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brians wig user not visiting Queenzone.com

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Posted: 08 Sep 11, 14:44 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Some of you will no doubt have read of my disgust at what they've done with the Wembley DVD, but there's MORE!!!

While this won't affect a certain percentage of the world, for those countries like mine (England), it's an absolute disgrace.

For some ungodly reason (though I have my suspicions), the new DVDs are presented in NTSC format.
For the North America, some of the Southern American countries and Japan this isn't a problem, but the vast majority of the rest of the world whose TV systems are PAL, it's a MAJOR issue!

Let me explain. These concerts were shot on PAL videotape at 25fps and the picture is interlaced, as is still the case with most of todays chat shows, game shows etc (generally only dramas shot with a single camera are de-interlaced).
The effect is that the picture looks "real" and gives the impression that you are "there". De-interlaced pictures actually  look like "film" and give a "watching a movie at the cinema" feel, taking you 'away' from the action.

By converting the PAL recording to NTSC, they have firstly increased the frame count by 4.97 frames per second and  these have had to be created! The result is generally a lowering of quality and sharpness and can introduce dragging - a ghost like trail on moving objects. This no doubt is the reason that the de-interlacing has occured in an attempt to prevent it.
The other downside is that NTSC is a lower quality format than PAL, so the picture has been reduced from 625 lines to 525 lines straight away so the 'screen size' is now 720x480 instead of 720x576.

I can only imagine that this has all been done for one of two reasons: either as a cost-cutting excercise and therefore meaning only a single master has to be made for the entire world instead of a PAL master (which makes QPL appear to be a bunch of cheapskates), or it's as simple as the fact that Universal/Island Records are an American country and therefore that's the standard they produce.

What pisses me off though is that 3/4 of the world use PAL (a quarter of the world uses SECAM, but their DVDs are PAL!), while only a quarter uses NTSC, yet it is this lower quality NTSC format that we are being forced to endure.

What makes this worse for me, is that my TV set cannot accept an NTSC signal, which means I get to watch it all in Black and White!

So, QPL. Do I have to go out and buy a NEW Television set just so I can watch an ENGLISH concert, recorded on PAL videotape, in colour!
NO. I bloody well shouldn't have to, and neither should anyone else whose equipment cannot cope with a FOREIGN TV signal!!!!!!!

One final, parting shot. Has anyone else noticed that they've even used the wrong menu for the Friday Night disc?
It clearly says "Saturday..."!!!!
They can't even get that right.

I would ask that everyone here who isn't happy about this state of affairs, contacts QPL  (or even Brian himself through his email address     brians.soapbox@clara.co.uk    ) and says they are not happy and this needs to be sorted out before we get any more Queen videos released in the NTSC in countries whose native TV system is PAL.

Thank you for your support.

rhyeking user not visiting Queenzone.com
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Posted: 08 Sep 11, 15:22 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Honestly, I prefer the texture of film over the texture of video. It doesn't take me away from the experience at all, quite the opposite. When I see old '80s video, with it's super-clean resolution, I keep thinking I'm looking at someone's home movies. It's the difference between an oil painting and an acrylic painting. The depth and richness is enhanced for me with film. Look at the difference between "Play The Game" (shot on video) and "Don't Stop Me Now" (shot on film). DSMN doesn't look like amatuer student film night, compared to PTG.

Now, when I buy the new Wembley disc and if it looks like crap, I'll agree that something is amiss here. My DVD of the previous release is fine, though, so I guess I'll wait and see.

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Posted: 08 Sep 11, 15:37 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

You're right, it all comes down to making just one version of the product that can be sold all over the world, and with niche products like music videos it's understandable.

The only reason why it's in NTSC instead of PAL is because most dvd players and television outside the USA can handle either format... But if you happen to have an older (and cheaper) television and a name-brand dvd player, the chances are you'll end up with black & white image. I had the same exact problem until I exchanged my CRT television with a new LCD screen.

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Posted: 08 Sep 11, 16:04 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

@ brians wig, I didn't have a clue what you were talking about until today when I played the DVD on the TV in my bedroom. When playing on a 42" LED through a Blu-Ray player, the deinterlacing was not at all noticeable. However, when I played it on an old 32" through an old DVD player I could see it instantly.
But I don't think this has been done to make it look like it was shot on film.  Apparently modern TV's have problems displaying interlaced images and deinterlacing improves the picture quality? I must say that I'm only repeating what I've read, I've not got the foggiest about TV's and picture quality etc...

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Posted: 08 Sep 11, 18:44 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Off-topic but I want to say that the new HD flat screen tvs are much better at adjusting picture quality.  I had to change from a CRT tv to a HD tv because I needed to play something with a HDMI socket. I then discovered that HD tvs have this Picture mode called "Original mode" in LG tvs and "Dynamic mode" in Samsung tvs which will adjust the screen automatically to a 4:3 or 16:9 format according to the format which the video, movie or tv footage was originally filmed.  The pictures look great on my tv now whatever it is playing.

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Posted: 08 Sep 11, 19:22 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

brians wig wrote:

"I can only imagine that this has all been done for one of two reasons: either as a cost-cutting excercise and therefore meaning only a single master has to be made for the entire world instead of a PAL master (which makes QPL appear to be a bunch of cheapskates), or it's as simple as the fact that Universal/Island Records are an American country and therefore that's the standard they produce."

==============

The Universal/Island Records point is a bit complicated.  All is not what it seems.  The Universal Music Group is "headquartered" out of California in the USA.  However since 2004, it is 100% owned by a French media company named Vivendi.  "Island Def Jam Motown" is the USA part of the label.  There is a stand-alone Island Records label for the UK and is under the umbrella of "Universal Music Group International".  Each of the Island labels has it's own bevy of artists.  

In the USA, Queen is still represented by Hollywood Records.  This is why the Queen Exhibition created by Island Records (UK branch) will never be coming to the USA (Hollywood/Queen territory).   

The Island records label (international group) may hold some of the South American territories and Japan? Not too sure. 

I have not checked it yet, but I have a feeling that if I want to purchase the Wembley DVD in the USA, I will likely have to buy it as an "import" from Amazon or wait  to see if it gets treated like the 2011 remasters and Hollywood gets to re-distribute - this takes forever.


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Posted: 09 Sep 11, 02:55 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

I think this topic could be a clear message to the chaps of QP. I really hope GB (who we haven't seen here for ages) and GT take a notebook a write all essential points down and present them to their management. Without being negative I think there a many points on this release which are quite unprofessional and could have been prevent.


You made us laugh, you made us cry, you made us feel like we could fly!
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Posted: 09 Sep 11, 04:54 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't understand why you make such a point about the de-interlacing. Modern TVs de-interlace interlaced footage automatically anyway... So if the release woud have been interlaced and you would have played it on your TV, you would be watching a de-interlaced image as well.

I have a calibrated dell u2311 monitor on wich I do all my video editing. Unlike a TV screen, computer screens don't automatically deinterlace. Before I switched to shooting in 1080p I used standard def. pal mini dv and camcorders that recorded interlaced footage. For playback those masters on PC, I always deinterlace first using virtualdub (I also keep the original interlaced footage for my archive). This way the footage looks much better on a PC. VLC, and other media players, also have a de-interlace function wich can be used while playing, but de-interlacing the master before playback gives way better results on a PC monitor IMHO. For playback on TV deinterlacing the master is not really necessary because the TV will do that for you. 

Unlike computer monitors modern TVs DO deinterlace. So one could say there's really no point in deinterlacing the source when it needs to be played on a TV screen. Having said that, I can imagine that the recent Wembley release has been de-interlaced with the notice in mind that a lot of people these days watch their footage on full hd pc monitors as well. By de-interlacing the footage QPL delivers a DVD that looks good on a TV and a PC monitor as well (no striped image).  And think about it, QPL has done the de-interlacing using state of the art software. I can imagine the software de-interlace they have done will be better, than the hardware de-interlacing that some, especially early ones, cheap full HD tv's do... So for cheap full HD TV owners this is good news :-) 

PAL to NTSC conversion is stupid. I agree on that one. They should have released a PAL version as well.

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Posted: 09 Sep 11, 04:56 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

tcc wrote: Off-topic but I want to say that the new HD flat screen tvs are much better at adjusting picture quality.  I had to change from a CRT tv to a HD tv because I needed to play something with a HDMI socket. I then discovered that HD tvs have this Picture mode called "Original mode" in LG tvs and "Dynamic mode" in Samsung tvs which will adjust the screen automatically to a 4:3 or 16:9 format according to the format which the video, movie or tv footage was originally filmed.  The pictures look great on my tv now whatever it is playing.

=================================================

They look better because the TV de-interlaces interlaced footage.

Dane user not visiting Queenzone.com
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Posted: 09 Sep 11, 07:04 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

This is VERY amateuristic and not thougt through! 

As a Multimedia specialist let me clear a few things up;

Interlaced video means the video stuffs 2 frames of video into just one frame. Cutting the data-size to be transmitted in half!
It does not nessecarily mean it looks that different from a non-interlaced (progressive) video. 

Most, if not all digital HD channels currently transmit interlaced video simply because transmission speed is not high enough everywhere to handle DOUBLE the size of data.

Anyway... I will not be buying the DVD I guess..  I would have made them the PAL version for free if it meant a proper release.


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thomasquinn 32989 user not visiting Queenzone.com
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Posted: 09 Sep 11, 10:00 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Dane wrote: I would have made them the PAL version for free if it meant a proper release.
============

The thing is, they could've made a PAL version for a pittance. It would have cost them very, very little more than the NTSC alone. But they decided not to, which I can't regard as anything else than a middle finger in the face of most of the world. They're saying "f*ck you, we don't care about you, or about the quality of our product. Give us your godd*mn money and shut up."


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Posted: 09 Sep 11, 10:24 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

ThomasQuinn wrote: Dane wrote: I would have made them the PAL version for free if it meant a proper release.
============

The thing is, they could've made a PAL version for a pittance. It would have cost them very, very little more than the NTSC alone. But they decided not to, which I can't regard as anything else than a middle finger in the face of most of the world. They're saying "f*ck you, we don't care about you, or about the quality of our product. Give us your godd*mn money and shut up."
---------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't stand up for QP very often, but in this case I have to...

They're probably selling about 10,000 copies of this title, out of which 3,000 are outside the Europe. They can choose to make an NTSC version (which can be sold everywhere), or they can make a PAL version (which can be sold to 70% of the market), but they won't make a profit from the second version.

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Posted: 09 Sep 11, 10:35 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

This is what I wrote "elsewhere" today


OK I'm watching and listening to the DOWNLOADED DVDs right now on my PC via PowerDVD.

DVD 1 - correct pitch, not sure about the speed (still have problems with my right ear). Video bitrate too high on some places (powerDVD showed me even 13MBps at some parts !) - result in powerDVD is that the image "freezes" for a split second, my standard DVD player (an old Toshiba) would probably stop the playback, but modern DVD players will probably experience no problems. But still ... Why is the DVD NTSC ? And why the hell doesn't it START with a menu, but it ENDS with an menu ? In other words, I should FIRST watch the concert, and AFTER the concert I should select the audio ? They STILL didn't learn it ?

DVD 2 - again playback starts with the concert and not the menu :-( And again it's NTSC :-( And it has "motion trails" (aka "ghosting") - please help me with the correct English term.

AUDIO PLAYS TOO SLOW (probably a result of slowing down from 25fps to 23.976 fps ?). I am usually VERY sensitive to "speed problems" and this one goes so far that it's really painful to listen. Also, has anybody seen the beginning of Under Pressure ? Watch John with his bass. WTF ? Did somebody WATCH the DVD before it was sent to the shops ? I doubt it.
The video is also really "grainy" in dark areas, what about some video filters guys ? :-( And the menu says "SATURDAY". I'm actually speechless.

My ORIGINAL plan was to buy this DVD and the last remasters batch together with the Star Wars BluRay boxset, and now it
looks like I'm gonna buy ONLY the remasters and the only reason is to have them all :-(

And the bonus documentary has AGAIN mixed parts of Knebworth and Wembley. Simply LOVELY


First of all I apologize for downloading them, but I don't buy "normal" DVD releases without knowing exactly WHAT am I buying.  I originally thought that I accidentally downloaded an NTSC version, but since it looks like ALL what was released is NTSC, I must agree with the title of this thread

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Posted: 09 Sep 11, 10:52 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Oh god, does this mean there's that repeating frame jump whenever the camera pans?
Thank you so much for informing us, the people who have brought it and try to watch it on an old TV will be disappointed.

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Posted: 09 Sep 11, 11:03 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

I haven't got the DVD yet, but from what's been said here I might not. I have to say that I prefer the "film look" over the "video look", but making videotaped footage look like film shouldn't be done.

Plus, NTSC is an abomination. Why would we want to lose 100 lines of picture?


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Posted: 09 Sep 11, 11:27 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Just a note to thank those for supplying technical information, because it's interesting.

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Posted: 09 Sep 11, 11:54 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Tero! wrote: ThomasQuinn wrote: Dane wrote: I would have made them the PAL version for free if it meant a proper release.
============

The thing is, they could've made a PAL version for a pittance. It would have cost them very, very little more than the NTSC alone. But they decided not to, which I can't regard as anything else than a middle finger in the face of most of the world. They're saying "f*ck you, we don't care about you, or about the quality of our product. Give us your godd*mn money and shut up."
---------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't stand up for QP very often, but in this case I have to...

They're probably selling about 10,000 copies of this title, out of which 3,000 are outside the Europe. They can choose to make an NTSC version (which can be sold everywhere), or they can make a PAL version (which can be sold to 70% of the market), but they won't make a profit from the second version.
=======

I do presume you are kidding. They would never have released this if they expected only 10,000 sales. Again, the additional costs for making both a PAL and an NTSC version are negligible. They just decided not to bother, and I find that reprehensible. If you don't, by all means, give these creeps your money. I know I won't.


Not Plutus but Apollo rules Parnassus

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Posted: 09 Sep 11, 12:32 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

The concert is 25 years old.

Watching it in Black & White with poor resolution should give you a Nostalgic feel.   You didn't complain about all those Mick Rock photos.

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Posted: 09 Sep 11, 13:24 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote




hi freddie
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Posted: 09 Sep 11, 13:53 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Get a proper telly Grandad.