Forums > Personal > Gaddafi Captured and Killed.....

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Mr Mercury user not visiting Queenzone.com
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Posted: 20 Oct 11, 07:44 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

.... apparently he was captured and died of wounds to his legs.

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/reports--gaddafi-captured-in-sirte.html


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Posted: 20 Oct 11, 12:36 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Awesome.

Now let's stop the hypocrisy and make democracy flourish at home..

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Posted: 20 Oct 11, 12:57 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Totally agree, Bob. I am sick to my stomach about the hypocrisy of our politicians. They truly give democracy a bad name.


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Posted: 20 Oct 11, 15:15 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Don't kid yourselves. The available video footage leaves very little to the imagination. A video shows a living, though wounded, Ghadaffi being manhandled, and a photo shows a dead Ghadaffi...with a bullet hole to the left side of his head that wasn't there previously.

He was executed, plain and simple. Why? Not because it was ordered, but because the 'army' opposing the Ghadaffi-loyalists is made up of equally despicable people as the army fighting for Ghadaffi. These are the thugs and hooligans you see in all countries. They always surface in times of war, all over the world. Ghadaffi may have been a cruel and tough ruler, the army fighting for the NTC is no less dangerous. They will murder any Ghadaffi-family member they find, no doubt whatsoever.


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Posted: 20 Oct 11, 16:21 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

I don't think anyone here has any illusions about that. The idea of justice and lawful procedures seems to have vanished from the face of this planet.


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Posted: 20 Oct 11, 17:53 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote



YourValentine wrote: I don't think anyone here has any illusions about that. The idea of justice and lawful procedures seems to have vanished from the face of this planet.


The added problem is that those rebels who killed Gaddafi were filled with 42 years of hate really. Gaddafi surving and being captured alive then being tried in a court of law was never gonna happen. The new government in Libya will a real tough job on their hands now.


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Posted: 21 Oct 11, 00:55 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

*shrug*  Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

Fuck Libya.  The video I saw could've easily been taken ten years ago under his own regime, but we're supposed to clap like retarded seals because the revolution went well?  Where the fuck am I, the 18th century?  I don't see why I should trust any government that goes for instant justice.  I'm not saying this for humanitarian reasons, because he was going to die anyway, but it's totally wrong what they did with him.  His conduct should've been gone over in court, and the fact of his deeds recognised properly.  

I am no more impressed by this turn of events than I was when the West started playing buddies with Gaddafi a few years ago.


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Posted: 21 Oct 11, 04:02 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Yes, exactly, Zebonka - but in which way are Western democracies any better? The NATO killed a son of Gadhafi and three of his grandchildren - all under ten years old -  by bombing their home which was never in any way to be justified by UN security council resolution 1973 (2011). It was bloody illegal murder of children and civilians. It did not get so much public attention because hours later President Obama announced the triumphant killing of Osama Bin Laden and people in the US celebrated just the same way as the Libyans did yesterday. Nobody seemed to think a lawful trial is necessary. The only difference is that we do not have mobile phone videos of the killing. I think that is what Bob was referring to by posting the second YT link. We are not any better and it makes me sick. I could not stand watching PM Cameron last night blaming Lockerbie and even the IRA killings on Gadhafi. How stupid does he think we are? Let us not forget how our leaders cooperated with the dictator to get cheap oil and to have someone who kept  the African hunger fugitives from getting into Europe.


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Posted: 21 Oct 11, 09:52 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote



Zebonka12 wrote: *shrug*  Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.


Fuck Libya.  The video I saw could've easily been taken ten years ago under his own regime, but we're supposed to clap like retarded seals because the revolution went well?  Where the fuck am I, the 18th century?  I don't see why I should trust any government that goes for instant justice.  I'm not saying this for humanitarian reasons, because he was going to die anyway, but it's totally wrong what they did with him.  His conduct should've been gone over in court, and the fact of his deeds recognised properly.  

I am no more impressed by this turn of events than I was when the West started playing buddies with Gaddafi a few years ago. ============================================================================================

Seals aren't retarded :-(


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Posted: 21 Oct 11, 10:54 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

While it's certain that he "had to go" and a trial would have produced nothing, I have to agree with TQ about how the whole thing was handled.  THAT was the future of Libya?  The ones who executed him?





And then to waive the murder weapon around like a festival?

Yeah, it's just the politicians.  PLEASE!!!!   Barb can blame Nato, the U.S., et all... but the bottom line is there's some pretty shitty people in all levels of society.

So what happens when they don't like the next guy?

And once again, Barbara needs to get her facts straight.  No one in the US was waiving the murder weapon around.  How exactly was the U.S. dragging his body around, hooping and hollering above his dead corpse, etc?  Where is that footage that Barbara thinks exists?  Oh wait, a secret plot to confiscate cell phones?  He was given a proper religious burial at sea.  That means someone actually respected the corpse and took time to prepare it for that.  There's your example of Western Democracy being superior to whatever band wagon you're on.

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Posted: 21 Oct 11, 13:15 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

If you think burying a person after killing him illegally makes it right you should read your constitution. Of course polticians made the decision and they are to blame.

Not that I agree with Ron Paul on many isues but here he is right

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_uy29aFzCU

International right also forbids killing supects. If we cannot agree even on such a basic rule there is not much hope.


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Posted: 21 Oct 11, 17:21 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Good.

Good.


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Posted: 21 Oct 11, 23:39 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

"but in which way are Western democracies any better?"

I think you should first find someone who thinks that the West is indeed 'better', and then ask them this question.


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Posted: 22 Oct 11, 06:51 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

I don't think the two deaths - bin laden and Gaddafi - can be compared.

Bin Laden was killed during his type of battle - secret and where it would hurt him most - in a war he declared. The US unit saw two women coming at them and believed they were wired with suicide belts. Bin Laden himself, they say, was reaching for a weapon. They shot him before he could shoot, escape or worse. Bin Laden was killed in battle the same as if he'd walked through his compound and had been shot by a sharpshooter. War sucks. People die. Sometimes even the bad ones. What a pity.

At first, Gaddafi seemed to have met the same fate - death in battle. Reports were he was captured wounded, then died on the way to the hospital. Now, it's clear, he was possibly wounded before he was captured then he was harassed, manhandled and, as he begged for his life, shot in the head execution style.

One is war, one is murder.


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Posted: 22 Oct 11, 11:05 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Wow, how disappointing to read that from you. Are you telling me that the President of the USA and his Navy Seals are a bunch of bandits who let a  terrorist decide on the rules of a shoot-out? Where is the proof about presumed suicide belts? I cannot believe that you believe that the wives of Bin Laden ran around in their house wearing suicide belts? Are you telling me they killed Bin Laden because they were afraid of his wives? If the wives had not been there it would have just been a friendly visit?

There cannot be a war between an individual and a nation. Bin Laden was probably a criminal who needed to be prosecuted. Definitely it would have been harder to follow the rule of law and catch him an put him to trial. There is no law in the whole world you can quote that would justify to send troops into an allied country and have them shoot someone you think has committed certain crimes. How bizzarre to call this a "war" only to make it sound less of an unlawful, criminal act.


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Posted: 22 Oct 11, 11:30 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

It was clear, I believe, that the entire binLaden compound was fortified, and those inside of it were prepared for a fight. To assume his wives, who no doubt heard the fighting as it came toward them, were armed and dangerous is not far-fetched considering the manner in which binLaden et al had fought their war. Did the US allow binLaden to determine the rules of a shoot out? Hardly. They responded the way they had to respond. If he’d surrendered, which I do not believe he would have ever done, and been shot, that would have been murder. If there was a doubt within those seconds whether he would charge or escape, then the US did the right thing by taking him out.

I’m not sure why there’s a question about whether this was a battle, or how it could be considered an unlawful criminal act, but then we had this discussion before and, while I respect your view and try to see it as you do, I simply cannot and do not agree.

I do still see a clear distinction between the way bin laden and Gaddafi were killed. And I still believe one was justified and the other was not.


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Posted: 22 Oct 11, 16:45 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

i worry for libya
i really do

firstly:
doesn't executing him make the rebels no better than him?

secondly:
let's see what the new libyan democracy turns out....,my best guess...it'll have the term sharia in it somewhere

thirdly:
all that oil can't help...can it? absolute power corrupts absolutely...and crude is the world currency...that'll make Libya 100% open to corruption.....Libya will need to be careful of not getting drunk with power


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Posted: 22 Oct 11, 20:45 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

I think that sometimes legal standards and the protection of individual rights are not of the highest importance.  While laws are supposed to protect a person's ability to have a trial, it is not always practical or safe.  For example, when a police officer's life is threatened or in the case of self defence, more immediate actions sometimes need to be taken.  This is not anything to be ashamed of. If Gaddafi had not started ordering the killing of his own people he might have been able to survive the uprising/conflict and retire to Italy.

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Posted: 23 Oct 11, 03:38 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

I think you are mixing up two issues here, Donna. Of course there are laws which allow self defence. A policeman who is attacked can defend himself like any other person. Some nations have laws that allow to kill a citizens after the person was tried in a court of law. However, a government cannot just kill a person with no trial only because it is more convenient. If we allow this idea, this will be the end of due legal process. There will always be a "reason" why a trial is unsafe or inconvenient. In Lybia we had a war and there are universal rules that a prisoner who is not armed and not fighting any longer cannot be killed. What will happen to mankind if such killings are sanctioned by a hateful and revengeful global public?

I think that many people would not even be so appalled if we had not seen the bloody mobile phone pictures. I bet the estimated 2400 men, women and children who have been murdered by predator drones under peace bomber Obama did not look very pretty as well but we did not see the pictures. Who has the moral qualification to blame the Libyan fighters who killed Gaddafi? Certainly not the European leaders who cooperated with him, the NATO with their illegal bombings or the US government which is leading in illegal killings. Looks like the global village is walking away from basic humanity quicker than we thought it is possible.


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Posted: 23 Oct 11, 03:40 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Donna13 wrote: "I think that sometimes legal standards and the protection of individual rights are not of the highest importance.  While laws are supposed to protect a person's ability to have a trial, it is not always practical or safe.  For example, when a police officer's life is threatened or in the case of self defence, more immediate actions sometimes need to be
taken.  This is not anything to be ashamed of. If Gaddafi had not started ordering the killing of his own people he might have been able to survive the uprising/conflict and retire to Italy."

I don't think anyone is arguing against self-defense. If anyone's life is threatened (forget a police officer), that person has a legal right to use reasonable force, which may require them to kill the attacker. However Gaddafi wasn't killed in war or in self-defense. He was executed, and as as such, I don't think it matters whether he had killed his own people.