Forums > Queen - Serious Discussion > "Lover" became "Liar"

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rocknrolllover user not visiting Queenzone.com
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Posted: 30 Dec 11, 14:18 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

I've heard that Freddie remade the song "Lover" in "Liar." Does anybody knows could trust this information?


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Sebastian user not visiting Queenzone.com
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Posted: 30 Dec 11, 14:23 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Liar included ONE riff from Lover. That's it. The remaining 99.99% could've well been completely different.


John hated HS. Fred's fave singer was not PR. Roger didn't compose 'Innuendo.' Witness testimonies are often inaccurate. Scotland's not in England. 'Bo Rhap' hasn't got 180 voices.
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Posted: 31 Dec 11, 03:23 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Seb you are very defnite about that. I take it you've heard Lover . Otherwise you're guessing again or relying on second hand info. Either provide a source or stop such definitive assertions. Speculation misrepresented as fact is the curse of the internet.


"amateurs practice till they get it right, professionals practice till they can't get it wrong"
Sebastian user not visiting Queenzone.com
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Posted: 31 Dec 11, 05:39 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Read what I wrote:

'Liar included ONE riff from Lover. That's it. The remaining 99.99% could've well been completely different.'

Key phrase COULD HAVE BEEN DIFFERENT. I'm NOT saying it CATEGORICALLY IS, I'm saying it COULD HAVE BEEN.

Granted, without hearing the song I cannot guarantee that only one riff is similar and the remaining 99.99% of the song is different.

Likewise, without hearing the song you (or anybody else) cannot guarantee that Liar is more similar to Lover than it is to Nevermore, Body Language or Delilah.

So, it would be speculation on my part (or anybody else's) to state they're completely different songs.

It would also be speculation on my part (or anybody else's) to state they're the same song (or even similar).

If a recording of this exists and surfaces at some point, an actual comparison could be made. Otherwise, all we have is second hand information, which has ONLY addressed that:

* One of the riffs was re-used (Brian said so on 'As It Began' and so did a former Freddie bandmate on 'Queen in Cornwall', IIRC).

* One of the lines is similar ('lover you'll never believe me' vs 'liar you'll never believe me', IIRC).

Absolutely NOTHING has been said to confirm or deny whether the 99.99% of the songs are alike or not. Maybe they are, maybe they aren't.


John hated HS. Fred's fave singer was not PR. Roger didn't compose 'Innuendo.' Witness testimonies are often inaccurate. Scotland's not in England. 'Bo Rhap' hasn't got 180 voices.
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Posted: 31 Dec 11, 12:54 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Caps lock gets your point across better.


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Posted: 31 Dec 11, 14:10 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Yes. YES IT DOES.


Any way the wind blows...
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Posted: 31 Dec 11, 15:43 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Everything seb says is opinion. He has just realised that Radio Ga Ga has a bass guitar...

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Posted: 31 Dec 11, 22:56 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Not everything is opinion. Whether The Game is better or worse than The Miracle is a matter of opinion. Whether The Game was originally released before or after The Miracle was released first is not a matter of opinion.

Every single version of my website (the first was issued on 8th January 2003) mentions the bass on Ga Ga (there's synth bass and there's also human bass) so no, I didn't *just* realise that.

It's obvious that a lot of things cannot be 100% proved, but 100% and 0% aren't the only two options. Not being able to prove EVERYTHING is not the same as not being able to prove ANYTHING.

It's New Year now. If my mobile rings and I hear a male adult voice which sounds exactly like my father, would it be a far-fetched speculation to think it's my father? No. I could assume it's him, and I've got a 99.99% chance that it's him, as I know how his voice sounds like. At the very least, I've got 99.99% chance that the person who's ringing is male and is between the ages of 55 and 65. There's a moderate chance that it's not my father, but a person who happens to have a similar voice. There's less chance (but still existing) that's it's a person far younger or older than my father, and that he just happens to have the voice of a 55-65 year-old. There's far less chance (possible but unlikely) that it's a teenager whose voice (due to a very rare genetic condition, for instance) sounds like that of a man between 55-65. There's faaaaaar less chance that it's a girl speaking via voice-modifier or who has an even rarer mutation that has her talking like a man around his sixth decade of life.

That's what I mean: all of the 'guesses' above are less than 100% guaranteed to be correct, but each one of the 'guesses' above has a different margin of error.

To think that John played the bass of You're My Best Friend would be very reasonable, even though we have no proof such as footage of him recording it (and even that could be dismissed as circumstantial or could be suspected to be fake or staged). If we consider, however, the credits, the playing style, the fact he was the bassist, the fact he wrote the song, the fact none of the other band members has that skill on bass, etc., it's reasonable to think he played the bass. There's still a chance that he didn't, but that would enter into a contrived far-fetched conspiracy (e.g. that they hired a ghost bassist).

To think that John was wearing a yellow t-shirt while recording the bass of YMBF is a different kind of 'guess'. It may easily be right (by sheer luck), and it may easily be wrong. He may have been wearing a shirt in any combination of shades, or maybe he was wearing no shirt... that, we can't know, and probably even he wouldn't remember (he's recorded over a hundred bass lines in his life, it's understandable if he doesn't remember how he was dressed for all of them).

Both cases would be 'guesses', with one of them having a 99.99% of being correct, and the other having a 5% chance (more or less) of being correct.

So no, not the same thing.

By the way, of course all caps help emphasis. That's one of their main functions. Happy New Year.


John hated HS. Fred's fave singer was not PR. Roger didn't compose 'Innuendo.' Witness testimonies are often inaccurate. Scotland's not in England. 'Bo Rhap' hasn't got 180 voices.
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Posted: 01 Jan 12, 00:50 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Wow that was a strange rant, you sound like a school teacher talking to 7 year old.


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Posted: 01 Jan 12, 05:10 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

That's classic Sebastian for you.

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Posted: 01 Jan 12, 07:06 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Perhaps the problem is that some people (and that obviously includes me) didn't receive the best education during their childhood or adolescence. I don't mean going to prestigious boarding schools or learning tricky mathematical formulae, useful as either may be for the professional and personal development of an individual.

In an age of exploration, adults often forget to teach the young population about the importance of clearly differing between the different shades of grey they may find in their lives. Sometimes the grey is dark enough to pass for black (even if it's not 100% black), and sometimes it's light enough to pass for white (even if it's not 100% white).

Going back to our topic, we don't have (and probably never will have) access to:

* A tape of 'Lover' being played.
* Music sheets (or at least chords) written for it.

Either item may have never existed to begin with, so all this discussion is purely based on second hand information. What such second hand information has outlined (and please feel free to add more evidence, as long as it's sourced from a direct witness and not just from internet rumours) is that:

* 'Lover' and 'Liar' share one riff.
* 'Lover' and 'Liar' share one line in the lyrics.

So far, that information is not enough to think that, as the thread title states, '"Lover" became "Liar".' It simply doesn't: 'Was It All Worth It' shares one riff with 'Death on Two Legs' (the tritone leap at the end of the first orchestral break vs. the piano/guitar/bass ostinato that follows the intro arpeggios), yet it would be absolute nonsense to say that '"Death on Two Legs" became "Was It All Worth It".'Lily of the Valley', likewise, has the harmonised line 'let me go' which precedes a single-tracked lead vocal utterance which begins with 'M'. Should we, then, think that '"Lily of the Valley" became "Bohemian Rhapsody"?'

Conclusion: we don't and can't know whether those two songs are any more similar than sharing one line and one riff. The remaining 99.99% of each piece could well be entirely different.


John hated HS. Fred's fave singer was not PR. Roger didn't compose 'Innuendo.' Witness testimonies are often inaccurate. Scotland's not in England. 'Bo Rhap' hasn't got 180 voices.
Sebastian user not visiting Queenzone.com
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Posted: 01 Jan 12, 08:18 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Sorry for the grammar mistake: 'it simply doesn't' should be 'it simply isn't.'


John hated HS. Fred's fave singer was not PR. Roger didn't compose 'Innuendo.' Witness testimonies are often inaccurate. Scotland's not in England. 'Bo Rhap' hasn't got 180 voices.
mooghead user not visiting Queenzone.com
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Posted: 01 Jan 12, 08:54 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

The songs are 50% alike. My evidence comes from my talking toothbrush, he heard it from his toothbrush friend.

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Posted: 01 Jan 12, 12:50 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

So, to summarize, Sebastian is right, and the chances of a girl calling him on the phone on New Year's Eve are 0% ;-P

Happy new year!


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Posted: 01 Jan 12, 13:09 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Sheldon Cooper is here...


Big Fish
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Posted: 01 Jan 12, 16:19 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Toothbrushes don't talk, knowing that Lover and Liar can be different is entirely unrelated to the decision of a girl to ring me on New Year's Eve or not, and I would sacrifice an arm and a leg to have 1% of Sheldon Cooper's knowledge (which would be enough to create an artificial arm and leg to replace the missing ones).


John hated HS. Fred's fave singer was not PR. Roger didn't compose 'Innuendo.' Witness testimonies are often inaccurate. Scotland's not in England. 'Bo Rhap' hasn't got 180 voices.
Sebastian user not visiting Queenzone.com
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Posted: 01 Jan 12, 16:25 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Moreover, linking a music-related writing to a person's social or romantic life and portraying them in a negative light is consistent with a person whose own life is so pathetic and empty that they have to go to QZ to insult others.


John hated HS. Fred's fave singer was not PR. Roger didn't compose 'Innuendo.' Witness testimonies are often inaccurate. Scotland's not in England. 'Bo Rhap' hasn't got 180 voices.
tomchristie22 user not visiting Queenzone.com
Because the wind is high
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Posted: 02 Jan 12, 16:00 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Well this certainly escalated.

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Posted: 02 Jan 12, 17:23 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Told ya..


Big Fish
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Posted: 03 Jan 12, 13:05 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

"You never had it so good. The yoghurt pushers are here. There's a place I have been and a face I have seen today. I have said all my prayers, never answered, never cared at all. But there's a sudden chance in me. I'm another person inside of me. Tomorrow I am going to see the last of the blue skies above me. Lover calling, I hear your voice, solar systems that surround you all your life, they remind me that you're really from another source of light. Lover, take me to your leader, I give you body and soul. Come to understand, I grow my life in the palm of your hand".

[Lyrics from "Lover", appearing in the "Oxford Mail" as part of a feauture on "Sour Milk Sea", from "Queen - The Early Years, by Mark Hodkinson, p. 113]