Forums > Personal > SCOTUS holds up Obamacare individual mandate

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GratefulFan user not visiting Queenzone.com
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Posted: 28 Jun 12, 11:25 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Fascinating to watch in an election year. It's held up as constitutional under powers of taxation - but if I recall democrats got it through partly by aggressively arguing it wasn't a tax! Romney's attack ads are busy writing themselves right now. What a pyrrhic victory for Obama.

As a human being you want the same health care rights and security for all people of the United States that most developed nations enjoy, but as a detached observer I can't help but be fascinated by the debate. On the one hand there is this existential threat to a particularly set, even dogmatic American self definition embraced by many, but on the other that view is a choice, a political expedience really that could as easily be spun through conservative ideology, and has been in the past. Remains strange to me to see how much health care remains perceived as a commodity in the United States rather than a human advancement that should be made available to all. In some ways I think of it like knowledge, and libraries, or the internet or something. Morally and ethically and for the good of the whole society it should just be there. The whole underpinning of the American Dream is that it is equally available to all who will work hard, and yet what could be a more fundamental skewing of the playing field than unequal access to physical well being and human value and dignity stratified through wealth. It really is hard to understand in 2012.

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Posted: 28 Jun 12, 11:53 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Can't wait to hear from Microwave on this...


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Posted: 28 Jun 12, 13:26 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

And knowing our rebellious cooking device, that will be a gilded invitation for him not to! :P

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Posted: 28 Jun 12, 15:25 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

What a load of crap.

So we're green-lighting the developement of some bastardized health care that will probably be overturned eventually. Just because the old farts said "ok"... that "ok" is really "ok, for now."

Still, it'll probably still be cheaper for me to drive 800 miles south to Mexico and get the same quality of care for less than "my cost with Obamacare".

As long as this load of dung remains partisan, it will always be dogged by the other side and therefore eventually overturned anyways.

At least the hearing was more exciting than most of the UEFA we've been seeing.

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Posted: 28 Jun 12, 16:05 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

When will the rest of the civilized world learn? It's important to limit health care to those who can afford it. It's not like people should have a fundamental right to be healthy.

If you've got terminal cancer and can't leave work because you'll lose your benefits to get your medication, you should be grateful that you're living your last month at the office and not at a depressing hospital.

The United States may be #38 on the life expectancy list, but they are #1 in sticking to the brilliant corporate philosophy of kicking a portion of the population to the curb. Bravo.


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Posted: 28 Jun 12, 16:10 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Can some American please explain an Central European guy how does the "healthcare system" in the USA work RIGHT NOW and how should it work according to Obama ?

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Posted: 28 Jun 12, 16:20 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

I'm not American, but here we go. Current health care in the US:

Nearly everything is privatized. If you qualify for health insurance and you can afford it, you can buy it. And it is expensive - an average of $3,000 per year per person. You can often get it through your job, in which case you will likely stay at that job for the rest of your working life even if you despise it, because you risk losing health coverage if you try to get another job.

Otherwise - it can get incredibly expensive to see the doctor or have surgery. Well into five figures. And often, insurance companies will find ways not to give you the money you need, for one reason or another - usually because they will find some kind of "pre-existing condition."

Medicare and Medicaid exist, but there are still tens of millions of Americans who do not have health insurance. The poorest 15% or so.

Public health care, like it is in the rest of the civilized world, will likely never happen in the US, because the companies in the private sector will stand to lose billions. Even with these changes put into place, health care will remain private - but the costs will be far less for those who cannot or barely afford it.

The right call this "socialism." Yet these same people see no problem with tax dollars bailing out bankers who caused the financial crisis.

So with this passing through the supreme court, Obama has made an incredible step in moving the US into the 21st century. But the right wing politicians will continue to speak for the businessmen who finance their careers, and will do all they can to thwart any step toward universal health care. But for now, all uninsured Americans will be forced to pay for health insurance. It may be difficult for some, but the cost will be nowhere near as bad as having the hernia operation under the current system.

Microwave is right - if Romney is elected, the decision will undoubtedly be reversed in his first term. But never mind the politicians. It is just startling how many unemployed Republicans will oppose this.



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Micrówave user not visiting Queenzone.com
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Posted: 28 Jun 12, 18:08 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Yet these same people see no problem with tax dollars bailing out bankers who caused the financial crisis.


FYI, no one was given a choice on this one....  it was just done.  So it's not that they're ok with TARP money.

Example:  I worked at a bank for 13+ years that had been around since 1848.  They started buying and giving bad loans.  It got real ugly until another bank was given 7 Million in TARP money.  They took 6 Million of that and bought out my employer and promptly gobbled it up.

New bank got to ditch the bad loans and the older employees and now has their loans processed in India somewhere.  All for free, basically.  They made that 6 million back (and then some) and was able to pay the government back... making them one of the "good banks".  Go figure.

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Posted: 28 Jun 12, 18:12 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Micrówave wrote:
They made that 6 million back (and then some) and was able to pay the government back... making them one of the "good banks".  Go figure.

Ha !

But the problem is ... the government got the money back, not the actual source of the funding - taxpayers.

At least Iceland got it right. They jailed all the bankers, and eventually the people took to the streets and overthrew the government. They defaulted and had a crappy year, but they're doing relatively well now.


"The more generous you are with your music, the more it comes back to you." -- Dan Lampinski



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Posted: 28 Jun 12, 23:03 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Not so well that they're not seriously thinking of adopting the Canadian dollar as their currency. I think it's a great idea. About time we get to boss somebody around! Maybe send some attack seals if it comes to that.

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Posted: 28 Jun 12, 23:23 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

In 2013 I get to look forward to 40% "cadillac" excise tax on my employer provided health care insurance.  I only hope I do not get double taxed on the 25% portion I pay for the health insurance.

It really sucks that labor unions bought a free pass and are exempt from this "cadillac" tax until 2018.  Of course, labor unions (particularly government workers) rarely pay more than 10 % of their health care premium cost, and yet they are immune to the cadillac tax ... at least until 2018.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703657604575004992410621692.html


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Posted: 29 Jun 12, 00:37 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

If people can't afford healthcare then they should just fucking cook meth in the desert.


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Posted: 29 Jun 12, 01:03 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Evidently, the "reconciliation" legislation ... delayed the the excise tax until 2018 for everyone (and eliminated the cornhusker kickback) .  Fortunately Senator Kennedy died and was replaced by a republican ... otherwise 87% would be subsidizing a free ride for the 13% (union members).

http://healthaffairs.org/blog/2010/03/19/the-health-care-reform-reconciliation-bill/


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Posted: 29 Jun 12, 01:14 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

What would Scrotie McBoogerballs think?


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Posted: 29 Jun 12, 04:18 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

People, don't forget that the Republicans have some of your most precious rights at heart:

Your right to die in squalid conditions from treatable diseases; the right of your children to grow up in abject poverty; your right to be left to your fate.

Let's not forget, America doesn't need insurance for health care. If you're ill and you can't afford help, you can go to your church. If you're not church-going, then you're a disgrace to America and deserve to die.

Yeah, long live the GOP. If there was ever an election between the filthy rich & powerful and the rest of the world, it's coming up this November.

Just remember that Mitt Romney is always thinking about *you*. More specifically, he's thinking of how to make more money from you at less expense for him and his friends, but that still counts as "thinking about you".


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Posted: 29 Jun 12, 07:39 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

No - You can go the hospital emergency room where you can find over half of the customers are illegal immigrants.


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Posted: 29 Jun 12, 08:08 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Panchgani wrote:
No - You can go the hospital emergency room where you can find over half of the customers are illegal immigrants.

I think even you realize the idiocy of the above remark. It does show the state of current Republican statesmanship. When faced with any plan by the Democrats, regardless of how good or bad it is, Republicans put their hands on their ears and yell "Socialism! Socialism! Communism! Illegal Immigrants! Atheism! Socialism!"


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Posted: 29 Jun 12, 10:23 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

thomasquinn 32989 wrote:
Panchgani wrote:
No - You can go the hospital emergency room where you can find over half of the customers are illegal immigrants.

I think even you realize the idiocy of the above remark. It does show the state of current Republican statesmanship. When faced with any plan by the Democrats, regardless of how good or bad it is, Republicans put their hands on their ears and yell "Socialism! Socialism! Communism! Illegal Immigrants! Atheism! Socialism!"



Don't forget, "Gays!!"


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Posted: 29 Jun 12, 11:07 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Free health care for illegal immigrants cost California over 1 billion dollars per year ...

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/18/us/18immig.html?pagewanted=all


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Posted: 29 Jun 12, 12:20 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Every health system has challenges that have to be identified and addressed as well as possible. Ontario has grappled for years with the problem of people borrowing OHIP (Ontario Health Insurance Plan) cards and obtaining health care illegally, most notably Americans. Photo cards introduced several years ago have helped, but OHIP fraud is and has been the bee in the bonnet of successive Ontario governments for years. The bottom line is that virtually every developed nation gets better aggregate health outcomes for less money per capita than the United States. The fact that the US is the last bastion in the first world of this kind of health model should give every American some pause. Respecting the unique entrepreneurial and independent American spirit does not require linking wealth to health outcomes. It's a strange Darwinian unnatural selection that can only hurt the culture over time, and perhaps already has.