Forums > Queen - Serious Discussion > My Milton Keynes DVD Project

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KevMull user not visiting Queenzone.com

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Posted: 18 Dec 03, 17:52 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

As my VHS copy of the longer 80 minute version is ageing fast (21 years this Jan!) and with no offical DVD release on the horizon, I decided to back it up for posterity.

This was my first EVER attempt at burning a DVD and I was very surprised on how it came it out....SUPERB, pic & sound identical to original tape. You'll be pushed to find a better quality version of the 80 min version (on DVD) in the public domain than this.

Remember this was originally a VHS direct from broadcast copy done on an old Ferguson 'piano keys' VideoStar VCR! (for those old enough to remember them!)
I added some smart looking menus (using Hot Space colours as the background), thumbnails and chapters with TMPGenc DVD Authoring software which look VERY professional.

At last I have Milton Keynes on DVD (albeit VHS quality)!

I'll do some screen grabs soon and post links here.

Merry Xmas to one and all


Adam Baboolal user not visiting Queenzone.com
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Posted: 18 Dec 03, 18:06 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Don't know what use it would be for the average fan to hear of this. But I for one, would like to hear the details of your venture.

Peace,
Adam.

KevMull user not visiting Queenzone.com

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Posted: 18 Dec 03, 18:12 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

What do you mean by 'details'?
The whole process involved from tape to DVD-R, equipment used etc?

Adam Baboolal user not visiting Queenzone.com
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Posted: 18 Dec 03, 18:13 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

The whole encoding process and special settings, etc. etc.

pma user not visiting Queenzone.com

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Posted: 18 Dec 03, 18:15 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

I too am interested in hearing everything from the resolution used to bitrate of the final video and software/hardware used (route from source to finished dvd).


"I think now I can make love to your anus without making God angry"



Registered: Friday, January 18, 2002



FriedChicken user not visiting Queenzone.com

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Posted: 18 Dec 03, 19:14 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Whats the use of putting it to DVD, if it's the same quality apart from that it doesn't get worse as it ages, and that it's easy to copy


"On the first day Pim & Niek created a heavenly occupation. Pim & Niek blessed it and named it 'Loosch'."



(Genesis 1:1)
Adam Baboolal user not visiting Queenzone.com
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Posted: 18 Dec 03, 19:33 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

lol Fried

The quality can be bettered through the use of a noise filter for bad video.

Adam.

KevMull user not visiting Queenzone.com

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Posted: 18 Dec 03, 20:42 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

OK, here goes...

Bear in mind i'm a newbie to all this DVD Authoring etc. I understand some of it but i'm from the 'old school' of linear tape to tape editing, copying!

----THE ORIGINAL BROADCAST----

Bought my very first blank VHS tape (Panasonic) way back in Jan 83 specifically for the broadcast, 'The Tube' on Channel 4 in the UK.

As mentioned before, recorded on a Fergusson Video Star complete with 'piano keys'.
The programme lasted approx 80 mins complete with pre-concert fan & band interviews etc.

It's NEVER been shown in this length since on UK TV.

It's had numerous outings and I’ve treated it as 'my precious' ever since.
NEVER been out of the house, just stored away with the rest of my Queen vids.
Only time will tell how DVD-Rs fair in 21 years!


----FROM TAPE TO DVD----

The years have been pretty kind to it and the quality still looks good and the tape itself is immaculate (no kinks, dropouts etc).

It's just good old 'fuzzy VHS' quality.
There's the slightest of picture jumping near the beginning and very faint terrestrial ghosting but hardly noticeable.

Copied the tape from a JVC SVHS vcr to the HD of a Panasonic DMRE-100 DVD HDD/DVD RAM Recorder (bought only 3 days ago), in the highest recording mode XP.

Transferred via S-video din cable.
(Whether this makes a difference with VHS is debatable).

The HD version came out really well, looked identical to the VHS version and no digital artefacts either.
INFANITLEY better than how a VHS to VHS copy would turn out.

Anyone familiar with the Panasonic range of DVD recorders will know about the 'Partial erase' feature. This allowed me to remove all the talking by the presenters Paula Yates & Jools Holland at the beginning of the programme. So it now starts straight into the pre-concert build up
(Commercials were already paused out at time of broadcast).

OK now I transferred it from HD to DVD RAM on the Pan E100 using 'Flexible Recording' (FR) mode. Basically the recorder will calculate the best bit-rate to use based on the total time of the programme. 80 mins in this case, so somewhere in between XP and SP modes. As it was in real time then it re-encodes it unlike in High Speed mode (see below) which doesn't re-encode. So some slight degradation.

Note the Pan E100 has several recording modes all giving different levels of pic quality.

Max times For DVD RAM/DVD-R...

XP = 1hr (digital broadcast quality)
SP = 2hr (better than SVHS)
LP = 4hr (better than VHS ?)
EP = 6hr (LP VHS equivalent).
FR = Depends manual time input

The other option I had would be to use SP mode originally then I would be able to do a high-speed dub to RAM in SP mode (you can only high speed dub at the same modes and not in FR).
As there's no re-encoding, there would be no degradation whatsoever but I would be using 2hrs (SP) on the disk and thus wasting 40 mins worth of 'bit rate capacity' (This is where FR modes comes in handy).
Either way there's a trade-off but I think as it's VHS then I don't think it makes much difference.
Maybe I'll try it again in the future using SP High speed dub and compare the difference.

----AUTHORING ON THE PC----

Using an LG GSA 4040B DVD Writer which reads and writes ALL DVD formats.

Imported the VRO file into TMPGenc DVD Authoring software which converts it to an mpg file.
(Took around 25 mins and created a 4gig mpg file).

Now here's where I started having a few problems.
The software won't play AC3 (Dolby Digital) so I couldn't create any chapters for each song.
Managed to strip out the AC3 file from the mpg using 'AC3 Tools' and convert to a wav which took 20 mins!
But upon playing this after a few secs TMPGenc kept informing me that my CPU wasn't powerful enough (900mhz) and stopped!
Apparently a lot of DVD, Video software lack AC3 support due to the high cost of the Dolby license.

So I put it back in the PAN E-100 and created chapters there using the 'place Marker' feature.
OK, done t

FriedChicken user not visiting Queenzone.com

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Posted: 18 Dec 03, 21:04 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

"The quality can be bettered through the use of a noise filter for bad video."

Yeah i know, but the topicstarter said the picture and sound quality was identical to the tape


"On the first day Pim & Niek created a heavenly occupation. Pim & Niek blessed it and named it 'Loosch'."



(Genesis 1:1)
KevMull user not visiting Queenzone.com

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Posted: 19 Dec 03, 05:58 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

"Whats the use of putting it to DVD"

1. Posterity, the tape is 21 years old and i'm not holding my breath in it (long version) being shown again or released on DVD by QP.

2. Convenience, song instant accessibility.
(Wouldn't dare use picture search on tape version now, too risky!)

3. Experimental reasons to try out and get to grips with the new DVD hardware/software and to see if the claims were true that 'copying VHS to DVD' give near identical quality to original. Which seems to hold true.

Penetration_Guru user not visiting Queenzone.com
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Posted: 19 Dec 03, 06:27 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

We had that VCR too, although I didn't watch The Tube in those days. Probably still watching Blue Peter.

Adam Baboolal user not visiting Queenzone.com
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Posted: 19 Dec 03, 08:34 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Nice info. But I'm wondering what the compression was to get a 4GB file. That's really small for 80minutes. But then, you were compressing on the fly with the dvd-ram recorder. Still...

Btw, remember that your media may have been to blame with that player that didn't work so well. The most compatible disc I have come across (so far) is the Bulkpaq Orange. Just £13.69 for 25 discs at the www.blankdiscshop.co.uk - They've worked in more than 5 different players so far!

Peace,
Adam.

ogre t raylot user not visiting Queenzone.com

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Posted: 19 Dec 03, 10:04 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

I Hope your satisfied wiuth the finished project Kevo - Best of luck.

I too have the original broadcast - Having gone through the same process of buying a VHS tape especially to record that particular broadcast of The Tube.

It's at the stage now where I daren't play it anymore.

The Mark Miwurdz sketch still makes me laugh.

ogre t raylot user not visiting Queenzone.com

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Posted: 19 Dec 03, 10:06 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

btw

are you keeping it in OAR?

Guy user not visiting Queenzone.com

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Posted: 19 Dec 03, 10:53 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Is it really complete?


"You'll never find rainbows if you're looking down."  -Charlie Chaplin
ogre t raylot user not visiting Queenzone.com

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Posted: 19 Dec 03, 11:47 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

"Is it really complete?"

It isn't the complete concert - But it's longer than the edit frequently shown on VH-1.

It also contains interviews with fans, Rick O'Brien (Stage Manager) and Brian & Roger.

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Posted: 19 Dec 03, 12:52 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Ah, the "Long Version" concert. Thanks :)


"You'll never find rainbows if you're looking down."  -Charlie Chaplin
KevMull user not visiting Queenzone.com

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Posted: 19 Dec 03, 16:47 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

"are you keeping it in OAR?"

Lol, I don't butcher my DVDs ! :)




KevMull user not visiting Queenzone.com

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Posted: 19 Dec 03, 16:52 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Adam

Thank sfor the info on the disks.
I was going to try a branded name like Panasonic, TDK or Verbatim.
I'll probably do it again with better media.

How do I found out the compression used?

The bit rate of the final DVDR varies from about 6 to 9.9mb.sec if that's of use to you.

The South American Concerts (full) next (Brazil & Argentina), which I have in SVHS and better quality than MK.

Adam Baboolal user not visiting Queenzone.com
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Posted: 19 Dec 03, 18:49 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Well, the compression is ALWAYS mpeg2, as you probably already knew. However that variable bitrate (6-9.9MB) seems more akin to 6MB constant. I made a 6min22sec featurette at 6MB constant bitrate that was 302MB. After a little multiplication, the number was similar to 4GB when I tried 80mins.

I usually get (analog) video into the computer and then make a constant bitrate project at 8MB. Then cart it off to software like Dvd-architect (Sonic Foundry). Once it's there, it gives further options for bringing the size down, e.g. bitrate (Very customisable), sound type (PCM or AC3) and the overall size of the project control.

Nice software. I'm pretty new to the software that has to be used. I'm still waiting for a professional piece of software, i.e. Sonic Scenarist. That's the one to get PRO results!

Peace,
Adam.