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PabloArg user not visiting Queenzone.com

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Posted: 23 Jul 04, 15:57 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Hi!

I was just wondering if any of you knew the origin of this MIH song.

I think I've heard some time ago that it was originally recorded during the hot space sessions; but I don't believe it's truth, It doesn't share exactly the same style of body language, staying power, dancer, and so.

Of course, it could have been much like them before re working on it, but I doubt....

That's all, thanks.

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Posted: 23 Jul 04, 16:01 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

**Wed 21 Jul 04**
YOU DON'T FOOL ME

[Ed: In response to 'Was You Don't Foool Me' written in the late 80's or during the Hot Space sessions...]

As I remember, the bare bones of this song [You Don't Fool Me] (and they were VERY bare!) were put down in the last sessions we did with Freddie in Montreux. When it came to piecing together "Made in Heaven", the album, David Richards was keen to make the fragments into a finished song. I wasn't sure there was enough to work on! He got a long way with weaving textures around the vocal sections we had, stretching things out a little. I think both Roger, and John who had had a lot to do with those original fragments in the beginning, went in and added some ideas. There came a point where finally I got enthusistic, and I spent a day or so, with Dave, putting down a lot of different riffy ideas that came to me while listening to the rough so far. Dave then moved a lot of things around, and worked his magic (mixing is his speciality - he 'rescued' a lot of stuff in the past, including Duran Duran tracks, for instance) - and then we all sat around and said, "Didn't we just play that perfectly!" ha ha! Well, that's probably an over-simplification.... but ... there you have it!

I really like the track now - but not as much as I LOVE the title track, MADE IN HEAVEN, which I think is possibly the best sounding Queen track ever, and MOTHER LOVE, which is to me the most significant collaboration I ever had with Freddie ..... alongside the one afternon I spent with him on an embryonic verse of "The Show Must Go On". I think I wrote about these things earlier .... But I digress... right ? !

Cheers
Bri

(From Brian's soapbox)


Resistance is futile. You are now an orb.

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Posted: 24 Jul 04, 07:44 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

So, to sum up, Fred`s piano and vocal parts were recorded in this order:

---

March 1980 at Munich:

It`s A Beautiful Day

---

August (more or less) 1983 at LA

Let Me Live

---

May 25th 1984 at Munich

I Was Born To Love You

---

May 31st 1984 at Munich

Made In Heaven

---

1986/1987 at Montreux

Heaven For Everyone

---

1987/1988 at Montreux and/or London

My Life Has Been Saved

---

1991 at Montreux

You Don`t Fool Me
A Winter`s Tale
Mother Love

---

My big doubt is Too Much Love. I haven`t seen any confirmation that it was for The Miracle album. It could easily before (Magic or even Works) or some months later - Innuendo -... don`t think Hot Space. Anyway, all we know is that Dave said it was recorded before Digital recording machines were around. So it`s possibly an early recording (84/85). Moreover, Brian said he first sketched the song in LA, which would relate to Works/Starfleet sessions in 1983, but I guess he could travel later, so it`s not so definitive.


John hated HS. Fred's fave singer was not PR. Roger didn't compose 'Innuendo.' Witness testimonies are often inaccurate. Scotland's not in England. 'Bo Rhap' hasn't got 180 voices.
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Posted: 24 Jul 04, 11:36 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

It was actually 50-50. I mean, he corrected mistakes in the midi, which originally came from a live performance.

That doesn`t go for the BTTL version, in which he did play the whole thing live


John hated HS. Fred's fave singer was not PR. Roger didn't compose 'Innuendo.' Witness testimonies are often inaccurate. Scotland's not in England. 'Bo Rhap' hasn't got 180 voices.
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Posted: 24 Jul 04, 15:09 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

"Too Much Love" was created between 1986 - 1989 between the "A Kind Of Magic" and "The Miracle" LP's.

I know this because...

It was written "Post-Magic" sessions. The magic sessions were pretty much complete, and "Too Much Love" was not a Queen track, but a May/Musker/Lamers collaboration.

Many of us own the Promo "Miracle" teaser tape; Miracle (Different Lyrics/Instruments), Invisible Man (Different Lyrics/Instruments), I Want It All (Incomplete Lyrics), Scandal, Too Much Love Will Kill You (Freddie vocal) - all edited Versions Taken From The Forthcoming Miracle Album.

This certainly shows that "Too Much Love" WAS completed with a Freddie vocal "PRE-Miracle" release.

The original "Too Much Love" Demo was cut in New York - c1987 and consists of the following tracks;

Intro Demo 3:08
First Piano Demo 2:55
Every Time Demo 1:38
Ending Demo “21
Second Verse Demo 1:04
“Shit!” Demo 3:11
Acoustic Guitar Demo 2:35
Home Keyboard Instrumental 4:32
First Vocal Demo 4:48
Home Duet Demo 4:47

Now, I am too lazy at present, but if anyone is willing to do a little research, "Too Much Love" was originally written c1987, in New York City, between 1986 - 1989 (I would guess post Barcelona) - so when was Brian in the states during this period?


"Listen to them. Children of the night. What music they make."
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Posted: 24 Jul 04, 15:49 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

John, I sent you an email a few months ago, but you never responded.

I find this information of yours absolutely fascinating; is there anything else you could tell us, maybe about The Game / Hot Space sessions?

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Posted: 24 Jul 04, 16:15 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Philipp Nothaft wrote:

Is this NYC demo-tape from 1987 a demo that Brian did with Musker and Lamers whilst writing the song or is this a demo recorded with Queen/Freddie later on ?
And what about the Bell Boy-tape ? Is this something different again or does it contain material from the NYC-sessions ?


First: The NYC demo and the Bell Boy tape are the same thing. Part of this "Bell boy tape" was "stolen" (ie recorded) between the time I bought it, and received it - and has been circulated ever since. The other bits I'm afraid - remain unreleased.

Second: it is not a real demo tape as such, but a home recording session recorded on a standard cassette tape featuring Brian with Musker and Lamers whilst writing the song.

Therefore, I can deduce that both the "proper" studio and Freddie sessions came later.

Considering Freddie's workload at this time ("Mr Bad Guy", "Time" and "Barcelona"), I would have to strongly suggest that the Freddie version at least, would be post Barcelona.

Again, looking at when Freddie and Brian were able to work together - I think this too suggests late '87 - early '88.


"Listen to them. Children of the night. What music they make."
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Posted: 24 Jul 04, 17:07 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Sebastian wrote:

August (more or less) 1983 at LA

Let Me Live
Are you speaking of the original demo or what came to be on "Made In Heaven"? Because, To me, Freddie sounds different on that than he did in the 80's.

Sebastian wrote:

May 25th 1984 at Munich

I Was Born To Love You
Wow! My first birthday! What a great present! ;)


"Elton John and I became really good friends. I don't mean 'good friends' in that sense. I just mean we slept together." -Billy Joel
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Posted: 24 Jul 04, 23:34 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

According to what Brian said, the first sketches of Too Much Love were done in LA, not New York.


John hated HS. Fred's fave singer was not PR. Roger didn't compose 'Innuendo.' Witness testimonies are often inaccurate. Scotland's not in England. 'Bo Rhap' hasn't got 180 voices.
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Posted: 25 Jul 04, 10:23 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Tell me Seb: What exactly is a "sketch"?

Also: If Brian was on a US tour at the time, is it not possible that "Too Much Love" was "created" between NY and LA - and even both?

For example: I know that Jimmy Page claimed to write whilst on tour, and that Noddy Holder wrote on airplanes - so pinning a "magical" moment to
"Over the Windy City" may both be correct on one hand - and incorrect on the other.

From my understanding, "The Bell Boy tape" came from NY - but technically you could be correct, it may have began life (or was even recorded) in LA, but this is conjecture.

But what I do know with certainty is: if the tape itself was completed by the time Brian was in NY, then logically, I can place the studio (and Freddie session) with some degree of accuracy BETWEEN the NY tape and "The Miracle" LP, which after all was the main point of the discussion.


"Listen to them. Children of the night. What music they make."
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Posted: 25 Jul 04, 10:32 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

In the case he did some recording in NY later, those would be the second sketches, not the first anyway:)


John hated HS. Fred's fave singer was not PR. Roger didn't compose 'Innuendo.' Witness testimonies are often inaccurate. Scotland's not in England. 'Bo Rhap' hasn't got 180 voices.
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Posted: 25 Jul 04, 10:51 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Lester Burnham wrote:

I find this information of yours absolutely fascinating; is there anything else you could tell us, maybe about The Game / Hot Space sessions?


Thanks Lester, but the problem is my life is too short to become involved in point-scoring, and wall-pissing competitions, and the sad fact is that I can never win.

For example, I have already in previous threads written a little about "The Game", "The Works", "A Kind Of Magic" and "You Don't Fool Me",
and in each occassion I have had to "fight" to demonstrate the things I said were "broadly" correct. (See above example).

In some cases this has been my own fault. As an academic, I am sure you understand that rather than bore with detailed minutia, to simplify things I have glossed over some details and talked in "broad-brush strokes" about others - but this brings howls of "wrong/inacurate and you are a fraud/cheat/blaggard" or whatever.

Then, if I say, I know about this because "I have the acetate" - I am accused of both upsetting the board by showing off - and in turn become a braggard.

Finally; much of what I write in Queenzone is stolen and appears on other web pages without as much as a "thank-you", then, when I point out a minor correction - the substitute site - is held up as the authority. (The Bell Boy tape is a good example - as I think someone once wrote to tell me that my track listing was inaccurate!).

So there you have it, in sum: I am "damned if I do, and damned if I don't". I am not a gun-slinger, and I do not enjoy "personal pops" - as they do "get" to me.

It is a shame - but that's life I suppose!



"Listen to them. Children of the night. What music they make."
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Posted: 25 Jul 04, 11:10 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Sebastian wrote:

In the case he did some recording in NY later, those would be the second sketches, not the first anyway:)


But that is my point Seb - "what is a sketch" - as you conveniently forget to answer the question.

Is a sketch an "original idea", a "theory", a "few words" a "verse" a "chorus" - or is it few "written notes", or is it a demo "recording" of some sort?

The FIRST recordings of "Too Much Love" are on the "Bellboy tape" which itself comes from NY. (It COULD come from LA - but I have no evidence to support this - but that does NOT mean that the LA theory is incorrect).

The complete tape demonstrates without doubt, the track grew as a "work in progress", and that each additional "track" was littered with fragments that did not make the final cut. So it is certain that Brian did not have the full song (or anything like it) in mind before the tape was recorded.

That does NOT contradict Brian's LA "sketches" claim.

However, the "Bellboy tape" DOES prove that this was democratically recorded over a few hours - and I can guarantee that this tracks the song from the very first note/idea to the first full-blown demos, and that no earlier versions exist.

In otherwords; NO WAY does this tape reflect "...second sketches...".

Finally, to repeat myself: Therefore, I can deduce that both the "proper" studio and Freddie sessions came later (Regardless whether it was a NY or LA birth).






"Listen to them. Children of the night. What music they make."
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Posted: 25 Jul 04, 11:37 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

I agree that Fred`s sessions should be later. But, to clear something, I didn`t say I think or believe or am sure that the song started in LA, Brian could have simply misremembered after all those years. Maybe it was NY and he said LA, who knows. Same case as Masterstroke studio, or the brand of the tour piano, etc. In fact Brian`s memory seems to be a little off last years imo


John hated HS. Fred's fave singer was not PR. Roger didn't compose 'Innuendo.' Witness testimonies are often inaccurate. Scotland's not in England. 'Bo Rhap' hasn't got 180 voices.
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Posted: 25 Jul 04, 11:41 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Seb: I agree with you that LA is the most LIKELY place for a recording because as pointed out earlier - Brian did live there at one time.

But, as an example: in answer to the question "When did Freddie record "Mr Bad Guy"? to say between "The Works" and "Barcelona" is MORE accurate than saying "A Night At The Opera" and "Barcelona" - both are correct, but one is MORE precise than the other.

I conceed you may well be correct about the LA thing, (and as suggested above it does make more sense), but like the above example, to say Freddie recorded the track between NY - and "The Miracle" is MORE accurate than "LA and the Miracle" because the former is a more precise time scale.

Philip you asked: "I wonder why you state on your website that the piano on this song was programmed rather than played".

Seb answered: "It was actually 50-50. I mean, he corrected mistakes in the midi, which originally came from a live performance. That doesn`t go for the BTTL version, in which he did play the whole thing live..."

If we are still talking about "Too Much Love Will Kill You", this is not the case. A Hollywood records "Karaoke" version was miss-pressed and is affectionately known as the "piano/demo version. (I know I am not the only Zoner to have this disc!)

Between the Bellboy tape, and the Hollywood miss-press, we know that the piano WAS played (not programmed) for the studio release, and that the "Back To The Light" version was not live but a complete studio performance.




"Listen to them. Children of the night. What music they make."
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Posted: 25 Jul 04, 13:22 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

When I said `BTTL was live` (or something to that effect) I meant that the piano was played live (I mean, from the beginning to the end of the song, same take), instead of "first verse, cut, now, roll the tape, second verse, cut... now put the takes together". I didn`t mean he played it in a concert

Bo Rhap is also a live backing track (I mean, Roger, John and Fred played their parts at the same time and left the take), while the lead vocal is compiled from different tracks and edited.


John hated HS. Fred's fave singer was not PR. Roger didn't compose 'Innuendo.' Witness testimonies are often inaccurate. Scotland's not in England. 'Bo Rhap' hasn't got 180 voices.
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Posted: 25 Jul 04, 13:36 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

OK Seb: but that's not "really" live is it - that's more in "One-take" is it not?

Also: Philip asked, "I wonder why you state on your website that the piano on this song was programmed rather than played".

But the piano was played rather than programmed - as the Hollywood "karaoke" demonstrates.

As for Bo Rhap: "Bo Rhap is also a live backing track (I mean, Roger, John and Fred played their parts at the same time and left the take), while the lead vocal is compiled from different tracks and edited".

I don't think this is correct either, as the GVH1 "Making of Bo Rhap" extra track, (and the new BBC doc) suggest otherwise.


"Listen to them. Children of the night. What music they make."
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Posted: 25 Jul 04, 13:43 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

The one in the Made In Heaven album is edited, as most pianos in the album, and Brian`s solo projects. "Programmed rather than played" is incorrect from me. I agree.

"Live performance" (as I wrote answering to Phillip) is technically correct for what I meant but can create confusions. I`ll avoid that one from now on. "Live recording", on the other hand is a valid term.


John hated HS. Fred's fave singer was not PR. Roger didn't compose 'Innuendo.' Witness testimonies are often inaccurate. Scotland's not in England. 'Bo Rhap' hasn't got 180 voices.
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Posted: 25 Jul 04, 17:17 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

John S Stuart wrote:

Thanks Lester, but the problem is my life is too short to become involved in point-scoring, and wall-pissing competitions, and the sad fact is that I can never win.

For example, I have already in previous threads written a little about "The Game", "The Works", "A Kind Of Magic" and "You Don't Fool Me",
and in each occassion I have had to "fight" to demonstrate the things I said were "broadly" correct. (See above example).

In some cases this has been my own fault. As an academic, I am sure you understand that rather than bore with detailed minutia, to simplify things I have glossed over some details and talked in "broad-brush strokes" about others - but this brings howls of "wrong/inacurate and you are a fraud/cheat/blaggard" or whatever.

Then, if I say, I know about this because "I have the acetate" - I am accused of both upsetting the board by showing off - and in turn become a braggard.

Finally; much of what I write in Queenzone is stolen and appears on other web pages without as much as a "thank-you", then, when I point out a minor correction - the substitute site - is held up as the authority. (The Bell Boy tape is a good example - as I think someone once wrote to tell me that my track listing was inaccurate!).

So there you have it, in sum: I am "damned if I do, and damned if I don't". I am not a gun-slinger, and I do not enjoy "personal pops" - as they do "get" to me.

It is a shame - but that's life I suppose!


Fortunately, most of us believe you; I have read your posts over the years and have enjoyed every single one, hardly doubting you over minute details. If you were to post a huge thread, it would not only be incredibly informative, but I'm sure the silent majority would appreciate it greatly. It's often rare that a Queen scholar such as yourself appears, and I find fascinating all the information the band is 'hiding' from us.

But I understand why you won't post; I just want you to know that most of us will appreciate it, even if there are certain naysayers who pick over every detail.

If you were to maybe e-mail me (if you had the time, of course!), I'd greatly appreciate it. I would of course use it for my own uses. Just from one Queen fan to another.

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Posted: 25 Jul 04, 17:39 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Ahem...

Permit me an interjection...

Seb & John (& even Brian) could all be right....

Brian is in LA, has an idea (and I agree about the source - his relationship with Anita & his wife, which makes this late 1986), and jots down a few lyrical ideas. On paper. "sketches" if you like. Now, hasn't he said Frank Musker was his therapist? Hypothetically, let's say he is & he's based in NY. So, Brian's staying there, one thing leads to another and a bellboy makes a couple of grand, from the first recordings of this new song...

What do we think (in broad brush stroke terms, obviously)?