Forums > Personal > Question about acetate vinyl records... (for those that actually own them!)

forum rss feed
Author

inu-liger user not visiting Queenzone.com
inu-liger
Deity: 13057 posts
add to buddy list send PM

Posted: 01 Apr 05, 01:45 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

I was at a vinyl record store called Freecloud Records, and what happened was, because the store manager (who was the only one beside me in the store at the time) had to run an errand or something, he had to rush me out of the store (and gave me a discount on the records I bought in the process, since I did not have enough time cos of that to find ten 7" vinyl singles to take advantage of the 10 for $3-something deal (CDN$)), and at the checkout counter, I noticed a special record that I (at the time) thought immediately to be what I thought it was: an acetate record. I asked the guy: "Sorry, but could I ask what that record is, before I go?" (pointing to the record in question).

He said, and confirmed, that it was an acetate record. So I was like "Like the ones you can play on record players" and he said "Yes, but I wouldn't recommend it" (duh, cos I already knew what I know about acetates! I was very excited though cos I'd never even seen any acetate records).

Of course, he told me that it wasn't really that special, and it used to belong to one of two possible radio stations that used to run (or one of which still runs) in Edmonton back in the 70's. He was right, cos the labels indicated "Halloween" on one side (with some weird track names(?) below) and "NEWS" on the other side. The way the individual tracks were cut is VERY weird; I will take a photo one day and show you guys what I mean when I can.

So I asked "How much would you sell it for if I were to ask?", and he said after seeing me take out my change, "Would $2 be OK?". I checked my change of course to make sure that I would have enough to go to McDonald's (which I didn't end up doing; I ate at Taco Bell instead, cos it was cheaper), and of course the $2 offer would work out, so I did give him the $2.


So anyways, this brings me to a question for people other than me that own acetate vinyl records: Are acetate records supposed to feel cold to the touch because of the metal alloys?

I'm curious, cos mine feels really cold even though the weather is warm these days. Even then, I've been typing this post with the record sitting in its sleeve on my lap, and it still feels cold!

Why's that?

inu-liger user not visiting Queenzone.com
inu-liger
Deity: 13057 posts
add to buddy list send PM

Posted: 02 Apr 05, 11:39 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

*bump*

Jjeroen user not visiting Queenzone.com

Deity: 4781 posts
add to buddy list send PM

Posted: 04 Apr 05, 05:48 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Yes, the heavy, cold feel is normal for acetates. (Only proves that you actually bought a REAL acetate ;-)

What's on it??

inu-liger user not visiting Queenzone.com
inu-liger
Deity: 13057 posts
add to buddy list send PM

Posted: 04 Apr 05, 18:07 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

jeroen wrote:

Yes, the heavy, cold feel is normal for acetates. (Only proves that you actually bought a REAL acetate ;-)

What's on it??


Nothing special really. It used to belong to one of two radio stations that "used to run" in Edmonton.

I'm guessing the first side has Halloween sound effects. This is what it says on the label (as far as I can decipher the bad handwriting) for side 1:


HALLOWEEN
33 1/3
78 Needle (*I have no idea if this means that the acetate was cut with a needle used for 78rpm records, cos otherwise the record apparently plays at the normal LP speed)

1. Speaking of Blood
2. Its free who am I kidding


Side two only says NEWS on the label, so I'm guessing it's some news reports.


I haven't given this a listen yet, due to a lack of a record player with a needle (but I may get one soon, as I'm talking to one of the teachers in my school, who is the head of a dept. within the school that happens to own a sound system with a record player attached to it)

But even when I do get a player, I'm only going to play this disc once when I transfer it to PC (*.wav format), and no more after that.
When I do transfer it, I'll upload MP3's of it if it's good or interesting.

Haystacks Calhoun user not visiting Queenzone.com

Royalty: 1550 posts
add to buddy list send PM

Posted: 04 Apr 05, 18:48 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

So, you spent $2 on a useless piece of acetate, with News and Halloween sound on it?


Sounds like you'da been better served to get you an extra Gordita....


"Not a fan of the ladies, are you Trebek?"



Sean Connery
XcessQueen user not visiting Queenzone.com

Bohemian: 381 posts
add to buddy list send PM

Posted: 04 Apr 05, 19:01 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Could you please explain to me what is an acetate?

inu-liger user not visiting Queenzone.com
inu-liger
Deity: 13057 posts
add to buddy list send PM

Posted: 04 Apr 05, 19:14 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Not to mention a distinctive smell as well

ED: You forgot to mention that acetate records, unlike vinyl records, can only be played a few times before the quality begins to deteriorate. Hence a huge factor as well in their rare status and value. The reason for this is because the lacquer layer is very soft. This is not too unlike the other lacquer used to make the master lacquer disc that is usually plated with low grade silver nickel, and then plated to make a "father" plate/stamper, which then is electroplated to make a mother stamper, the latter which can be also played on a record player to usually check for errors (I don't think these are meant to be played very much on the turntables much either, because I think the metal actually hurts or damages the needles)

Also, only a handful of acetate records are made at most, hence the ultra-rare collector's status they usually enjoy. Unlike vinyl records, these are cut instead of being pressed.

inu-liger user not visiting Queenzone.com
inu-liger
Deity: 13057 posts
add to buddy list send PM

Posted: 04 Apr 05, 19:27 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

There are a small number of edits or different versions of Queen songs only available on acetate outside of the archives, most of which seem to be owned by our own Ron Buczko, who owns quite a deal of these acetates.

Rare versions include, but aren't limited to:

Las Palabras De Amor (The Words Of Love) (Version 2)
Ogre Battle (BBC Version - Edit)
We Will Rock You (Edit)

...to name a few.

A couple acetates with normal or single versions include:

Jesus (8" sized!!)
Pain Is So Close To Pleasure (12" - extended version)

I believe Ron owns the 2nd one (PISCTP) as he has a scan of that (and all above mentioned acetates, plus more) on his website:

http://www.queenpicturehall.com

I quite admire the fact as to how he has collected so many of these acetates.

Now if we could get more information on the alleged Hangman acetate...that'd be a different story

dragonzflame user not visiting Queenzone.com

Deity: 2456 posts
add to buddy list send PM

Posted: 04 Apr 05, 23:33 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

So which were the ones that smashed if you dropped them?


When life hands you lemons, add vodka.
iGSM user not visiting Queenzone.com

Deity: 5001 posts
add to buddy list send PM

Posted: 05 Apr 05, 00:16 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

78s? Those big fucks.


...this kettle is boiling over...

...one dump...one turd...two tits...John Deacon...

...one prawn...one shrimp...one clam...one chicken!
XcessQueen user not visiting Queenzone.com

Bohemian: 381 posts
add to buddy list send PM

Posted: 05 Apr 05, 16:35 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Thank you Barry and Inu Yasha!

I assumed most of the those facts.

What I DIDN'T know is that acetates are NOT made of vinyl (which is the main characteristic of acetate, in my opinion). Also, I didn't know they can be played only a few times before the quality begins to deteriorate.

But now I have another question - why would someone make a record on a material so fragile that it can be played only a few times???
Is sound quality of the acetate much better than vinyl?

And - if acetate and vinyl are different materials, why is this topic called "acetate vinyl records"???

And I have another question (thank you for your patience). :)

Couple of years ago, my friends (who are Croatian rap group) ordered from New York - their first single to be pressed on only 2-3 copies. I held one in my arm. It was 10", it looked black as any other vinyl record, but it was at least twice heavier and thicker. It felt much more strong and compact than a regular record. They called it "double-plate" or something like that. If you know what I'm talking about - please tell me - was that the "acetate"?

www.queenpicturehall.com is my favourite Queen site and I'm a regular visitor. I saw there some pictures of "acetates", but on those pictures you can't see a difference between acetate and regular vinyl record, so I didin't care much about it. But know I'm really curious, 'cos I wanna learn this.

I talked to that Ron Buczko guy 2 or 3 times. Inu Yasha - what do you mean by: "our own Ron Buczko"? Our own? Is he on this forum?

Sorry if I'm bothering you with all this questions...
Thanx. :)

inu-liger user not visiting Queenzone.com
inu-liger
Deity: 13057 posts
add to buddy list send PM

Posted: 05 Apr 05, 17:49 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

dragonzflame wrote:

So which were the ones that smashed if you dropped them?


Acetates and really old 78's will break if dropped. The older 78's seem to be also made out of some sort of metal, as I actually own a 10" 78rpm disc myself (with some actual music on it), and it's just as heavy as the acetate I own. I own a few other 10" discs, and none are as heavy as that one 78 disc.

inu-liger user not visiting Queenzone.com
inu-liger
Deity: 13057 posts
add to buddy list send PM

Posted: 05 Apr 05, 18:09 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

XcessQueen wrote:

Thank you Barry and Inu Yasha!

I assumed most of the those facts.

What I DIDN'T know is that acetates are NOT made of vinyl (which is the main characteristic of acetate, in my opinion). Also, I didn't know they can be played only a few times before the quality begins to deteriorate.

But now I have another question - why would someone make a record on a material so fragile that it can be played only a few times???
Is sound quality of the acetate much better than vinyl?


Apparently, it is for the first few times, as it is cut directly from the master tape, unlike vinyl records, which are made in this method:

(NOTE that this is the 3-step method which is the norm for making records; I will explain the 2-step process after this)

1) Master tape, CD, etc., gets sent to the mastering facility. They cut the heavy lacquer disc (usually with the help of computers these days to determine the frequency pitch, etc.) from the source

2) The lacquer HAS to be plated within 72 hours before chemicals begin to grow in the grooves (although I hear these can be temporarily cleaned off if necessary). The lacquer is electroplated with a low-grade silver nickel substance of some sort (I forget what it's called), which makes a "reverse image" stamper called the "father plate"

3) The father plate goes through a similar process where it itself gets electroplated to make what's called a mother plate, which itself can be played on a turntable to check for mastering errors.

4) The mother is converted into a stamper, or several stampers. An individual stamper can be used to press up to 1000 vinyl records each, if memory serves me correctly.

About at least or around 100,000 vinyl records can be pressed using the above-detailed 3-step method.

The two step method is the same in the beginning, except the father plate is converted into a stamper, to press up to a maximum of 10,000 records (not much, but good for limited runs).


Either way, test pressings on normal vinyl records are made to ensure proper mastering and smooth playback. It's mandantory.

Test records can be usually pressed in greater quantities than acetates, for obvious reasons.

Test records can also be referred to as "reference lacquer" discs, in the case of people, especially DJ's, testing out/playin the discs to other people, including clubs, to see if the discs are worth pressing and distributing.
These discs are usually also known as "white labels", since many of these discs are cut with white labels, sometimes with handwriting, or no information at all (hence some mysterious songs floating around in vinyl shops - I've seen these myself, and they're pretty interesting!)

Hence we sometimes get discs, both acetates and test pressing "white label" discs, that are pressed in a handful of copies, and not released in general.

And - if acetate and vinyl are different materials, why is this topic called "acetate vinyl records"???


Actually, acetate records aren't really made of acetate. It's just an industry term that stuck to the discs (for reasons unknown to me).

The exact make of the acetates themselves are a bit of a mystery, since no-one seems to know what they are made of. All I know myself is that it is sort of a metallic alloy, with vinyl lacquer coated on the metallic or glassy plate. The lacquer layer is soft, which makes for better cutting (even though acetate records sometimes have an extra hole in the label area, presumably to have something hold the records in place so they cut properly at the same speed constantly - mine has a hole like that), but not for constant playing, as the lacquer layer wears down, and eventually breaks away (apparently) with repeated playing.

And I have another question (thank you for your patience). :)


No problem. Ask on...

Couple of years ago, my

XcessQueen user not visiting Queenzone.com

Bohemian: 381 posts
add to buddy list send PM

Posted: 05 Apr 05, 18:51 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Wow! Thank you very much!

In my country (Croatia) the last vinyl record was made in 1994. That was the year they shut down the machine... don't ask me why.
So, if someone wants to make a vinyl record it has to be made in some other country.

Having read all this, now I think that my friend's record was not acetate, but "heavy 180-gram disc ... made of normal vinyl material ... for better sound reproduction and lesser chances of the needle falling out of the grooves". They played it on hip-hop parties, so I guess it cannot be acetate.

I'm a little bit ashamed now, because I should be the one to know all this, regarding the fact I was a radio DJ for 4 years and a club DJ for 10 years...

But it's a different world here in Croatia... there are not so many vinyls around, and particulary not some "special" records, like acetates, test records, white labels, limited editions...

You don't have to share with me pictures of acetates.
Thanx again for you effort. :)

inu-liger user not visiting Queenzone.com
inu-liger
Deity: 13057 posts
add to buddy list send PM

Posted: 05 Apr 05, 20:12 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

No problem.

It's a shame that Croatia doesn't do vinyls anymore, really, IMO.

inu-liger user not visiting Queenzone.com
inu-liger
Deity: 13057 posts
add to buddy list send PM

Posted: 05 Apr 05, 20:16 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Here's a better description of what acetates are like:

They look more solid and shinier than normal vinyl records. (You can't even bend them sligtly like you can with normal records - THAT's how solid they are!)

The grooves are somewhat bigger, so much that you could probably run your fingernails through them (though I wouldn't recommend it, as that is a stupid thing to do - and NO I did not do that!)

ferdy user not visiting Queenzone.com

Bohemian: 176 posts
add to buddy list send PM

Posted: 25 Apr 05, 13:37 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote



Rare versions include, but aren't limited to:

Las Palabras De Amor (The Words Of Love) (Version 2)
Ogre Battle (BBC Version - Edit)
We Will Rock You (Edit)

...to name a few.

A couple acetates with normal or single versions include:

Jesus (8" sized!!)
Pain Is So Close To Pleasure (12" - extended version)



Now if we could get more information on the alleged Hangman acetate...that'd be a different story


I have a KYA acetate with long version on bside... it i've recorded it and i think it's the version included in the us cd. Never seen hangman not even on offer or from any collectors list...



www.Queenmuseum.com

Collecting is everything!!!