Forums > Personal > If war on terror is wrong what should we do?

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Fairy user not visiting Queenzone.com

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Posted: 09 Jul 05, 15:53 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

I'm kind of annoyed by people who will keep complaining about our Western leaders and their policies. But I too hate war and violence, so I would like to hear from anyone who has any reasonable, practical solution on how to end terrorism which does not imply war.

If trying to liberate these countries from their cruel leaders is wrong, then what is there to be done? We can't just say that war is bad. This is something people like Brian can say, because well, it's fashionable and it doesn't hurt your image anyway. I'd just like to hear any practical alternatives. I hope there are! I don't mean to be provocative. I'm really interested in hearing different points of view. But please don't suggest any euthopias. I'm talking about real solutions, as if you were the leader of the US or the UK right now.

Anyone?

Fairy



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Posted: 09 Jul 05, 16:29 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

I agree Fairy. But I have nothing useful to say :P

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Posted: 09 Jul 05, 16:30 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

we need to remove those who may cause terror so we can have peace.

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Posted: 09 Jul 05, 16:43 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

This has gone on since mankind began.

Tyranny, evil, dictators, people with fanatic evil agendas or who just enjoy inflicting pain and suffering, will always exist.

There have been Ghandis, and Jesus Christs and Buddahs, and Dahli Lamas since the beginning of mankind who TRIED to stop evil with WORDS and DEEDS of humanity, of compassion, of tolerance.

They also (with the exception of Buddha) were all assasinated by those very evil tyrants.

We cannnot become cynical, and give up hope, tolerance, and humanity.

This week, I saw the world..and England rejoice with 3 pivotal events that brought out the BEST in people all over the world.

Those 3 events were, Live 8, the G8 Summit, and the Olympics, all which celbrated the indomitable spirit of GOOD that IS in many people..rockin' all over the world. Sorry to get mucshy, gushy here. But my heart soared this week.

Well, last night, ABC News in the USA voted their usual person of the week. But THIS time, they said they were making an exception..and voting the PERSONS of the week, that is, The People Of London and The UK, who after all the joy, you all had from Live 8, the G8 and The Olympics...suffered such tragedy...and...ENDURED and TRIUMPHED and on Friday, you all prevailed and life went on. The news showed Winston Churchill and the Brits during WW2 when you all had suffered the blitz and The UK looked like one pile of burning rubble, and the news spoke of how, the people in Britain, after decades of being the victims of WW2, terrorism, etc...always Prevail and LOVE life and appreciate life.

Well, we around the world, like the people of London and the UK, cannot lose our humanity, our faith, our hope. We must continue to try to have a dialogue with people of other cultures and nations...and TRY to have a dialogue and tolerant undersatnding about their idealogies.

But...when people commit acts of violence and terror on us...there is nothing to do, but defend ourselves. I have no answer but that. One must defend oneself when attacked with brutality and violence. When NOT dealing with ratioanl people, but irrational cults and fanatics, tyrants, that is the only thing I can think of..to do. Sorry.


xyz
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Posted: 09 Jul 05, 16:47 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Barry © wrote:

Why are they attacking us in the first place? this is the question we need to ask.


Sometimes there ARE rational reasons.

But..Sometimes, there are NONE. WW2, WW1, through time, you will always have evil tryrants who kill and destroy for NO reason, but EVIL.

Why do everyday people rob, rape, beat, and murder one another?
Why do parents beat, kill or molest their own children?
Why do the leaders in Africa live lives of extravagent luxury while allowing millions of women and children to die every 3 seconds, taking these peoples' food, resources, even intentionally committing genocide and killing their own people?

Sometimes you cannot beat yourselves up looking for rational explanations. And accept that there are evil people in this world.


xyz
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Posted: 09 Jul 05, 16:52 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

WW1 was a tradtional war based on long-held prejudices and beliefs. There was no ''evil'' inherent in that war, other than the ''normal'' evil that accompanies war. The point I'm making is that WW1 did not have a Hitler bent on destroying an entire race, but was more about expanding influences and control in an imperialistic fashion.




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Posted: 09 Jul 05, 19:21 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

We will never end terrorism. All we can do is remove the Mid-east terrorists and there will be less (and hopefully no more) attacks. To have a goal to remove all of the terrorists is to have an unreachable goal. All we are working for is to get the new midle eastern democracy settled and strong so that they will be controlling the problem and the other countries will be helping much less until there is eventual peace. My only great fear is that our next President is EXTREMELY anti war and gets congress and the Supreme Court to pass the order to remove all of the troops wiht out finishing their job. There will be chaos if that happens.

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Posted: 09 Jul 05, 20:47 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

War IS terrorism. The only reason America is so pro-war is because it's not taking place on their fucking doorsteps. On top of that, this whole liberation thing is a load of shit. The shi'ites will take over Iraq and their more traditional woman beaters than the sunnis - where's the liberation in that? Maybe Saddam was a tyrant but imo, he's not as bad as Bush (who's a passive serial killer for fuck's sake). First off, I reckon they should get rid of bush. Then they can think up an alternative.

...And no, I don't have any other alternative to that fucking war.

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Posted: 10 Jul 05, 00:45 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Barry © wrote:

Why are they attacking us in the first place? this is the question we need to ask.


Because your Prime Minister is friends with Bush and therefore you deserve it.

Really, I don't know. I wish I did. All I can really add is that I heard on the news this morning that mosques are now getting vandalised in retaliation to the London bombing. The people whose places of religious worship have been damaged are just as innocent as those who were killed, they just happen to have slightly more in common ie. Islam, despite radically different interpretations of it.
So the question we need to ask is, are the people who would vandalise mosques as payback really any better than the bombers?


When life hands you lemons, add vodka.
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Posted: 10 Jul 05, 01:03 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

dragonzflame wrote:

Barry © wrote:

Why are they attacking us in the first place? this is the question we need to ask.


Because your Prime Minister is friends with Bush and therefore you deserve it.

Really, I don't know. I wish I did. All I can really add is that I heard on the news this morning that mosques are now getting vandalised in retaliation to the London bombing. The people whose places of religious worship have been damaged are just as innocent as those who were killed, they just happen to have slightly more in common ie. Islam, despite radically different interpretations of it.
So the question we need to ask is, are the people who would vandalise mosques as payback really any better than the bombers?


No, but it's not like the vandalised mosques are gonna be flashed all over the news - the media couldn't give a rat's ass about religion unless they can pin something on religion...

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Posted: 10 Jul 05, 06:05 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

OK thanks guys.
The "give peace a chance" answer is a wonderful theory we all agree with but unfortunately it's empty in itself and it offers no practical solution.
The "get all terrorists" solution is the thing we all wish to happen. It's being followed - yesterday lots of people were arrested in Milan and lots of explosive found - but these criminals are to many to be caught, especially because they are living as good neighbors in our towns, and mixing with the good, innocent people of their races.
The dialogue solution is necessary, and it can help but it cannot solve the problem of terrorism because there's actually nobody you can really talk to.
Barry is right: why are they attacking us? If they wanted something material like a piece of land, for instance, we could sit down and negotiate, and maybe even give it up for peace's sake. But it's not clear what they want from us. If they want us to convert to Islam, or to give up our way of life, I'm afraid this can't be done.

So I don't think there is any alternative to liberation wars for now, no matter how cruel they can be sometimes, which can help restore some sort of democracies in those countries and have some control over the training of terrorists.

But this discussion is great and, though we're not world leaders, it can still be useful, I think.

I guess it's in the human nature, as Arlene says. I'll end with a commonplace: how beautiful the world would be without war! So much energy, so much money, and so many intelligent brains we could use to fight poverty, find cures for diseases, build infrastructures, and just go out and have fun!!! Sorry, I know this is a commonplace, and a euthopia.

Peace and love to all
Fairy



“If the house crumbles... I’ll just build it again”

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Posted: 10 Jul 05, 09:08 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Barry © wrote:

You know what would be good?

Getting a few genuine Muslims to infiltrate these fanatical groups and this being reported in our press.

Apart from this causing untold damage to them, it would go a long way to ease religious and racial tension.


Barry, I totally agree. I think the Muslim community should do more to let us know that they oppose terrorism, and that it has very little or nothing to do with the principles of Islam. I don't see much reaction among them though. They should rally on the street against these attacks, at least in the Western countries where rallying is safe. We can't demand that they put up demonstrations in Islamic countries with regimes, though that would be the absolute best to ease tension and above all to isolate the terrorists. The only thing that can stop them is complete isolation. This is a sort of cultural revolution that unfortunately the Muslims have to undertake within themselves.

Fairy


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Posted: 10 Jul 05, 11:11 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Pressure has to be put on the Islamic clerics to denounce the suicide bombers, that they are not martyrs to the cause (and guaranteed a place in heaven or wherever they go) but ordinary criminals. Until this happens I can't see it ever stopping.

I can't speak for other nations but the UK should deport people like Abu Hamza. He preaches hate against this country and as far as I am concerned that is treason.


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Posted: 10 Jul 05, 13:11 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Fairyis speeches are always short but they reach the target...

i can't givre a precise order to my thoughts...but here you'll have some ideas

I think the reality is much more complicated than it seems: i think the existence of terrorists has its roots in the past. the interests about some specific limited resources (and the greed of some nation-people) has created a deep hate. this is happening each day...
Religion is just a mask for them to attack, i think the leaders of terrorism just make their "soldier" blind and some misread pages of islam are their starting point. i'd also add that West nations tried to protect their interests in the past giving money to enemies of other west nations...i think this past sceneries are showing now a boomerang effect.
The west countries are too busy in caring about their economy and a huge number of not necessary at all stuff (my mp3 reader is the perfect example...) Our economy is based for a good percentage in not necessary goods and the crisis is growing. The military costs are high, maybe if we spent this amount of money to help poor countries (in a reasonable way) we could set them free from hunger and set us free from terrorism.
One of the largest resources of terrorism and one of the biggest problem of the world is DRUG; here we need to think a lot about. some suggesitons: West nations consuming drugs...it makes me think we have everything, so we (not me) use drugs to have something "more"...they get money from giving us heroine (in afghanistan this is the only way to make money)...uhm...if the request of drug was close to zero they could not have money from that.




It's ridicoulous the attempt to export democracy in countries where people does not know what is democracy....it would be less expensive to export there the knowledge.


Anything too stupid to be said... is sung.
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Posted: 10 Jul 05, 19:02 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

<font color=#FF399> Linda Of The Valley wrote:

dragonzflame wrote:

Because your Prime Minister is friends with Bush and therefore you deserve it.



That is so arrogant. Ordinary Londoners deserved to be killed because of this? I don't think so.


No, no, you've got it all wrong! I don't think that at all, it's so hard to convey sarcasm on a message board. Please don't think I meant that, I was just as upset about the bombing as everyone else, having family and friends in London who could easily have become victims.
It was a sarcastic and stupid answer to Barry's question, is all, intended to reflect the stupidity of all the carnage.


When life hands you lemons, add vodka.
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Posted: 10 Jul 05, 19:22 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

dragonzflame wrote:


So the question we need to ask is, are the people who would vandalise mosques as payback really any better than the bombers?


That's a pretty easy question to answer, and the answer is "yes, a thousandfold." I'm not saying that their actions were in any way acceptable, I'm just saying that 'bombing' and 'vandalization' are not exactly right next to each other on the "bad things to do" scale.


Creativity can always cover for a lack of knowledge.
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Posted: 11 Jul 05, 05:57 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

No, but aren't they still stooping to a similar level? The bombings were designed to cause hurt and misery to people, just as vandalising mosques is. Dishonouring one's religious faith and desecrating their place of worship is one of the most (read: not THE most) cruel things one human can do to another.
I'm not trying to weigh the acts themselves - of course killing people is the lowest of the low - but both groups are still trying to cause massive hurt to people for perceived misdemeanours outside their control. While the acts themselves may not have as much impact on as many lives as the other, I still maintain that the ignorant, spiteful people who would actually choose to take either course of action are as bad as each other and really need to take a long, hard look at themselves.


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Posted: 11 Jul 05, 06:22 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

HI HITMAN!!!
Do you really think my posts are short? I was afraid they were too long!

Anyway, I disagree on some pointts you made :-(.
First of all, I don't agree that we should give up our comforts to avoid terrorism or to help foreign countries. It is not by giving up our wealth, our mp3 players etc. that we can help anyone. I believe in equality, but not in the "all equally poor" motto of the Communists, but in the "all rich" motto!
So if my life is easier by having an mp3 player, a cell phone, a TV...I don't see why I should feel guilty for it.

The truth is that it's not by giving money to these countries that they will be helped. You certainly know that often Western commodities sent to these countries are stopped at the border because criminals won't let the goods in. Also erasing public debt, which sounds like a wonderful thing to do, will not help the poor people, but will only help the brutal leaders of those nations to become even richer at the expense of their people.

We have our flaws, of course. But I think the concept of being wealthy is being distorted in the West, and especially in Italy, where being rich is sometimes equated to being a thief. I'm not poor, and I'm happy about that. I'm not ashamed to say that my parents were able to put aside some money thanks to their hard work. They too rose from poverty, as everybody in Italy did after world war II. In Italy after the war our parents didn't sit there and cry. And they didn't send terrorists to the richer countries in the 1950ths either! We took some financial help (mind you, especially from the United States which so many criticize!)and made the most of it.

If we must take some responsibility for the terrible situation of world politics today, so must the countries which generate terrorists. And I think that if our responsibility is = 1, theirs is at least 100.

You can't always blame it on the others. You can't only expect help from others. that is what a beggard does. I will never feel ashamed because I was able to make my life easier. So shouldn't you. Enjoy your mp3 player! It would do no good to the poor if you throw it away. They don't need charity. They need to learn how to cope for themselves. But the will to learn should be theirs.

Well, sorry, this wasn't that short!!! LOL

Ciao bello!

Fairy



“If the house crumbles... I’ll just build it again”

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Posted: 11 Jul 05, 07:14 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Bob The Shrek wrote:

Pressure has to be put on the Islamic clerics to denounce the suicide bombers, that they are not martyrs to the cause (and guaranteed a place in heaven or wherever they go) but ordinary criminals. Until this happens I can't see it ever stopping.

I can't speak for other nations but the UK should deport people like Abu Hamza. He preaches hate against this country and as far as I am concerned that is treason.

Ditto- the whole thing with Abu Hamza is just pathetic. The guy should be either deported or simply in jail. There should be a pressure on Muslims to state clearly that the bombings are just a crime- not a saint war. If someone is saying it's good- deport straight away... As well- we need to know more about Islam. Not the dark side of it (wars, suicide attacks and so on) but the good one. What does the Koran really say? What are they values? Not from extremists, but from normal people just like me and you. I know few Muslim people (few from Turkey, few from Afganistan) and what they're telling me about their faith has nothing to do with what Bin Laden and others are claiming... We should educate ppl and make them understand that it's not the certain religion that is the problem but few idiots and fanatics...
What we DON'T need is "eye for an eye" thing. This way we're gonna have more bombs not only in London, but also in Paris, Rome, Warsaw, Amsterdam, Los Angeles... take your pick...
We cannot negotiate with people like Bin Laden and few others. But we CAN make sure their message and their leadership has less followers. We need to show the good values of the Western civilization- so far we're showing NOTHING about love, compassion... What we're showing is ignorance (what do we know about Islam?) and extreme arogance, claiming that only our values are right, only our way of living is good... Don't we know it from the history? How were we converting Indians in America? How did we show them OUR way of living...? Inquisitions? Crusades? We know the history... Or did we forget it? Don't we fight saint wars as well...? Aren't we sometimes almost as arrogant as Bin Laden? It's so obvious that when you force your views onto someone what you gonna get is a negative reaction. It's only a simple human reaction... But no- we are christians, we live in democracy, everything we do and represent is perfect and everybody else in the world MUST live the same way... I'm not against the Western values- I want to make it clear! But what the Western World is showing CONSTANTLY is extreme arrogance. Mr Bush is the best example of that... There's nothing worse than Christian extremist- as dangerous as Muslim one... Is anyone surprised that so many nations almost hate America...? I'm not. I'm not saying it's right. But IT IS the fact and... I understand it. Great Britain? Recently almost as arrogant...
Of course we won't change our way of living and convert to Islam! (however- is our way of living that perfect? is capitalism so great? don't think so...). But the same way we cannot force the world to live OUR way. And with all the globalisation, trade and stuff- that's what we do...!!! We defend our way of living by invading the entire world- not only countries and people but also the nature. We'll pay the huge price. Bigger than we think. IMO this race (human race) is doomed- sooner or later. We've got unbeliavable self-destructive instinct. We don't respect anything else (nature, other people). We're arrogant... And this arrogance of the Western economies meets the extremist reaction...
Did that make sense...?

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Posted: 11 Jul 05, 07:34 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

you can't deport people who are British citizens...

Trust me - Muslims are horrified by the bombings.
The clerics in the mosques are condemning acts of terrorism.

I agree with the point that Muslims should be seen to be condemning all acts of terrorism. But if you read the local press in cities with a substantial Muslim population - they are doing just that.