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rhyeking user not visiting Queenzone.com
rhyeking
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Posted: 04 Feb 06, 22:46 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Okay, is this bugging me, as I have no way finding out because I don't own any of the singles in question.

Reports conflict as to which version is on which release. If anyone can clarify for me, I'd appreciate it.

"Cowboys And Indians" by the Cross

7" single:
"Cowboys And Indians (7" Single Version)"

12" & Cassette single:
"Cowboys And Indians (Album Version)"

Promo CD single:
"Cowboys And Indians (CD Single Version)"

The mystery for me revolves around the Promo CD single, because apparently the sleeve lists the same time as the 7" Single Version, but that this is incorrect. Apparently, it doesn't have the 4:20 time (as listed), but has a version that is 4:32, unique to this release.

Can anyone with the Promo CD single confirm this (and not just by looking at the sleeve, but by popping it in your player and seeing the displayed track length)?



Serry... user not visiting Queenzone.com

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Posted: 05 Feb 06, 02:47 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Maybe it helps:

"Cowboys And Indians

Official Single Version
The first release by The Cross was this strong dance / rock effort. This fusion of styles is a trademark of Roger's. The officially quoted running time of this is 4:32, compared to the 5:52 album version (which also appears on the 12"). However, in reality the 4:32 mix is available only on CD (on the "Shove It" CD single, and the promo-only "Cowboys And Indians" CD). As edits go, its a good one, which makes it even harder to understand why it did so badly in the charts.

Actual Single Version
The actual 7" plays a version with a running time of 4:20, as stated on the label (which makes a change). Whilst the 4:32 CD version includes several seconds of silence, it is also audibly longer than this 4:20 mix (although you have to time them) by at least five or six seconds. Strange but true.

Full Length Version
This is the name of the version on the 12" (its also on the promo CD single), but it is in fact the standard album mix. Its mentioned here so people aren't misled into thinking the 12" has something extra on it. Time 5:52" by Jason

"Cowboys And Indians (Album Version) 5:53
Appears on: Shove It, UK Track 2/US Shove It, Track 3

Cowboys And Indians (Single Version) 4:32
Appears on: Shove It CD single, Cowboys and Indians promo CD

Cowboys And Indians (7" Single Version) 4:20
Appears on: Cowboys and Indians 7" vinyl" by Adam

"Cowboys And Indians
CD 5:54 Version - Virgin CDV 2477
UK 7”/Japan 3” CDs 4:30 version - Virgin VS 1007" by John

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Posted: 05 Feb 06, 13:31 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Nice one Serry, but there are two 7" mixes listed there...and nobody's listened to the cassette mix?

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Posted: 05 Feb 06, 15:59 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

OK, I thought I'd do some checking...

Using Goldwave, I copied the vinyl edit into one channel & the CD edit into the other, with the intention of synching up the starts and listening for the differences.

I didn't have them exactly synchd up, but they were close...except the 7" edit started falling behind almost immediately, and it got worse, but nothing appeared to be missing.

So I took out the 3 seconds of silence at the end so they were only 5 seconds apart, then slowed the 7" edit down by 2% so that it lasted about as long as the CD edit.

Then, it basically matched up. Not exactly, but close enough for me to be confident in saying

"The two mixes do not differ in any way other than the speed they were mastered at"

Check for yourself...

http://www.momoshare.com/audio/view.php?play=f461d6e44f37ac6e4c20aacef5baabb6

Predictably enough, I can't find the cassette at present...

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Posted: 05 Feb 06, 16:08 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Woa that's really interesting to listen to. Thanks!


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Posted: 05 Feb 06, 17:20 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Awesome guys, so the pitch is off, huh?

Cool. Thanks everyone.

And yes, that description above is from the Trainspotter's Guide site, and that was the source from which I was working, the problem was that most other sites didn't seem to record this difference. So, not being able to test the veracity of the claim myself (not having the singles) I figured people here could tell me.


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Posted: 05 Feb 06, 20:24 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

rhyeking wrote:

Awesome guys, so the pitch is off, huh?


What I'm going to say doesn't have to mean anything, but nevertheless I want to mention it:

Not every turntable is playing 33RPM at EXACTLY 33RPM and 45RPM at EXACTLY 45RPM.
Even if the turntable sayd it does, it DOESN'T ALWAYS!
For example, when I want to record music from my turntable to my computer (and then to MP3 or CD), I have to adjust the speed in my computer with 104% for 45RPM-records and 102% for 33RPM-records.
So that could explain the difference in pitch/speed. I say COULD, I'm not saying it IS.

I think the best way to find out if they really are different or the same, is record the vinyl version, pitch the speed to exactly the same speed as the CD version and then compare.

One small other thing:
Everyone assumes that the vinyl single version is 4:20 minutes, but has somebody really checked it ever? The sleeve says 4:20, but that doesn't mean anything. I have records where a song of 3:30 minutes is 4:50 according to the sleeve.

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Posted: 06 Feb 06, 19:52 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Checking the sleeve against the actual running time of the track is pretty much why I started this post, so we could get a definative answer on *what the actual audible track length is and whether it differs from the promo CD version."

As to pitch, it's possible that the pitch of the master was off when putting it to the 7". *This* has happened, whether by accident or on purpose:

"I Want To Break Free (Extended Mix - 12" Collection Version)" which obviously appears on the Box Of Trix 12" Collection CD/Cassette has a slightly lowered pitch, adding to the running time. This was caused by the master being played too slow.

"Keep Yourself Alive (Live Killers Version)" has the pitch slightly too faster, compared to bootlegs of the same concert (this is detailed, I think, on the queenconcerts.com site...correct me if I'm wrong).

Those are two examples off the top of my head. The thing to do for the ambitious soul wanting to figure this out once and for all is to a) make sure your turntable's pitch is correct. To do this, play something on it you compare to a CD (say, any Queen album). Then, b) play the "Cowboys And Indians (7" Version)" and see whether it is 4:20 and whether the pitch of that version is to high or not.

If it's too high, that probably accounts for the time difference. If the pitch is fine, and the track is still 4:20...well, something else is editted.

If I had these singles, I'd do it myself (sigh).

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Posted: 06 Feb 06, 19:57 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

See, *this* is why I love this site... Thank fuck for you guys...I really thought BPP and his accolytes/alternative identities had taken over.

This has been most helpful. I'm about to enter into the whole "let's-put-the-rare-vinyl-onto-hard-disk" phase of my musical life.

Insights have been given. Cheers

Paul


"Just tryin' to have a little fun, folks..."
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Posted: 06 Feb 06, 20:19 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Um...you're welcome...I think...

Does any of his really make a difference in the grand scheme? No, of course not.

But hey, everyone needs a hobby, stupid or otherwise!



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Posted: 07 Feb 06, 08:47 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

rhyeking wrote:

Does any of his really make a difference in the grand scheme? No, of course not.

But hey, everyone needs a hobby, stupid or otherwise!



Hehehe, of course not.
But hey, what else do I have to do with my spare time?
LOL

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Posted: 07 Feb 06, 10:54 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

rhyeking wrote:

Um...you're welcome...I think...

Does any of his really make a difference in the grand scheme? No, of course not.

But hey, everyone needs a hobby, stupid or otherwise!



No seriously - I mean it!! Otherwise, all I have to read is "Paul Weller is a dork" and "Get rid of Paul Rodgers."

Which is all rather tedious.


"Just tryin' to have a little fun, folks..."
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Posted: 07 Feb 06, 15:20 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Jerome, my vinyl rip of Cowboys was 4:20, so yes, we've checked that.

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Posted: 07 Feb 06, 17:09 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Hi Computer,

I wasn't implying you were insulting me or anything, was just engaging in a spot of self-deprecation.

Thanks, Thanks, 4:20 it is! Now, is that edit a result of for material taken out (compared to the 4:32 Promo CD version), or because the pitch is off on the recording on the 7"?



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Posted: 08 Feb 06, 15:13 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

The latter, as I already said.