Forums > Sharing The Music - Announce > So what exactly IS "official" then?

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Michael Allred user not visiting Queenzone.com

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Posted: 05 Jul 06, 16:00 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Occasionally someone comes along here posting a new MP3 file. More often than not it's a live recording, unreleased demo, etc. Sometimes though, tracks like "Soul Brother" are put up. Almost immediately some folks charge in saying it's "official", demand the links/files be removed and (in an over-the-top manner) say Queen themselves will jump in and have queenzone shut down.

As most of us know, at various points in time, "Soul Brother" (and other songs) were released officially on some format or other where anyone could buy it in the proper, legal way but *as far as I know* "Soul Brother" is, at this moment in time, unavailable to purchase as it is not officially available on any *in print* format.

So if "Soul Brother" is unavailable for legal purchase on CD, why is it a problem downloading an MP3 of it? It's clearly not costing Queen any money. The only person losing out would be someone selling a copy on Ebay.

That brings me back to my original question, what is deemed "official" then and how do you come to that conclusion? To me, "official" (in terms of MP3 downloads) is anything currently available on CD/DVD/VHS that is *in print* and can be bought legally with Queen receiving their fair cut of the profits.

If the audio/video in question has 1) never been released on any format or 2) has been released but is now out-of-print then it should be ok to download.

Now if you're gonna get *real* technical then EVERYTHING is official because all those demos and such are OWNED by Queen productions and nobody should be downloading them.

Look at the recently stolen/leaked Brian May demo "Marie's the Name" and Brian's comments about it on his soapbox:

"It is the original bootlegging which is the real problem ...yes, of course after that it is anyone's. It's not the money that bothers me - it's the feeling of having been burgled - it's theft ... these tracks, whether they are 'out' or not, definitively belong to someone, and this kind of thing is just part of a depressing attitude which seems to prevail out there now ... of complete disrespect. I think it is sad that the world is like this now.

I cannot blame 'hard-core obsessives" for seeking to enjoy rare material ... but I do blame the people who steal it from those who created these private things, and make everything ultimately worthless. It's nothing to do with "purity" either ... any more than you perhaps wanting to be left alone on the toilet. Just a little respect would be nice ... rather than "Let's see what we can get for nothing". "

So what is the issue here then? How do you people look at it?



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Posted: 05 Jul 06, 16:22 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

I'm against posting official material here,I don't want QZ to be closed down of course,but I can't stand people over-reacting when somebody post anything,we should check as you say if it still available to purchase,or ask Richard before posting,not just insult people who,intentionally or not,post material here,and just one more question,I understand that many sites have problems with official stuff on line,but what is legal and ilegal on the net nowadays?.


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Posted: 05 Jul 06, 16:36 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

you made some clear and good arguments, Michael ...

I have forwarded all questions regarding sharing on Queenzone.com (torrent and/or links to rapidshare) or sharing offical or non-offical material in any way shape or form or streaming video or linking to streaming video to a person who will let me know (based on legal arguments) what will be allowed and what will not be allowed.

I will keep you all updated with the answers

Stefan

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Posted: 05 Jul 06, 17:20 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

all i can say is "Rules are rules"


Loser in the end!!!
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Posted: 05 Jul 06, 17:34 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Any intellectual creation made by a musician is official... I mean... It doesn´t matter if the (for example) One Vision version is from a bootleg or from the album... is official because "One Vision" is official... (I´m not agree with all this of off. and unoff.) so... the people who aren´t agree with posting official thigs... SHUT UP.

P.


Queen rocks!
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Posted: 05 Jul 06, 18:16 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

masterstroke_84 wrote:

Any intellectual creation made by a musician is official... I mean... It doesn´t matter if the (for example) One Vision version is from a bootleg or from the album... is official because "One Vision" is official... (I´m not agree with all this of off. and unoff.) so... the people who aren´t agree with posting official thigs... SHUT UP.

P.
you have wrong look on what official really is, you can play live any song you want without author's premission, but you cant put his original song on your cd and sell it...

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Posted: 05 Jul 06, 18:20 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Basically something that has been officially released in any format at any time...be it out of print or not...carries with it a fixed work copyright.
Therefore making that fixed work available without written permission or needed licences is a breach of copyright & can ,if the laws chooses, hit you hard.

Live performances of copyright songs are not fixed work.ie,the version played live will be different in some way to the fixed work & so carries no copyright until "officially " released in some format.

hope that helps a bit

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Posted: 05 Jul 06, 18:26 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

So what exactly is the problem with people here getting their shorts in a wad about posting links to PROMO VIDEOS????????????????????

You can go to launch.com and see them, most band sites have videos there, readily available to watch.

Posting the whole Innuendo CD is wrong. Posting links to videos is NOT....period.


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Posted: 05 Jul 06, 18:54 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

This may be too generic, but:
Don't post anything that, at any point (now or in the past), Queen (or any other artist, corporate entity, etc.) have gotten money for.
Things don't ever become 'unofficial'. If they WERE, they ARE.
The concept isn't that difficult.
Stop trying to find loopholes.
If you can't go to the store and buy it new, look on e-bay, go to a record show, or visit garage sales.


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Posted: 05 Jul 06, 19:08 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

I hate to burst everyones bubble here, but it is a well known fact that EVERYTHING that gets posted on this site for download is ILLEGAL. Granted, I and many others do not agree with that, but that is the way it is. The following is from the RIAA official website...

"Piracy" generally refers to the illegal duplication and distribution of sound recordings. There are four specific categories of music piracy:

Pirate recordings are the unauthorized duplication of only the sound of legitimate recordings, as opposed to all the packaging, i.e. the original art, label, title, sequencing, combination of titles etc. This includes mixed tapes and compilation CDs featuring one or more artists.

Counterfeit recordings are unauthorized recordings of the prerecorded sound as well as the unauthorized duplication of original artwork, label, trademark and packaging.

Bootleg recordings (or underground recordings) are the unauthorized recordings of live concerts, or musical broadcasts on radio or television.

Online piracy is the unauthorized uploading of a copyrighted sound recording and making it available to the public, or downloading a sound recording from an Internet site, even if the recording isn't resold. Online piracy may now also include certain uses of "streaming" technologies from the Internet.



So there we have it folks. The RIAA has deemed it as illegal. Now, wether people decide to listen to what the RIAA have to say, or decide to ignore it is up to them.

But the fact remains - this site, as well as MANY MANY others on the internet (not just Queen related), are illegal and in breach of copyright laws.



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Posted: 05 Jul 06, 22:34 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

masterstroke_84 wrote:

Any intellectual creation made by a musician is official... I mean... It doesn´t matter if the (for example) One Vision version is from a bootleg or from the album... is official because "One Vision" is official... (I´m not agree with all this of off. and unoff.) so... the people who aren´t agree with posting official thigs... SHUT UP.

P.


Would it KILL you to have some spell-check? Gee-zuss..
Anyways, my two cents on the topic: A non-issue. There are certainly other methods of obtaining official material like B-sides or demos than over QZ. Filesharing programs like WinMX, Soulseek, BitTorrent, etc. should be more than sufficient.


HE ROCKS US STILL.

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Posted: 06 Jul 06, 01:59 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Squidward - Here is the full unedited passage you quoted from RIAA.com:

Anti-Piracy

Old as the Barbary Coast, New as the Internet - No black flags with skull and crossbones, no cutlasses, cannons, or daggers identify today’s pirates. You can’t see them coming; there’s no warning shot across your bow. Yet rest assured the pirates are out there because today there is plenty of gold (and platinum and diamonds) to be had. Today’s pirates operate not on the high seas but on the Internet, in illegal CD factories, distribution centers, and on the street. The pirate’s credo is still the same--why pay for it when it’s so easy to steal? The credo is as wrong as it ever was. Stealing is still illegal, unethical, and all too frequent in today’s digital age. That is why RIAA continues to fight music piracy.

"Piracy" generally refers to the illegal duplication and distribution of sound recordings. There are four specific categories of music piracy:

Pirate recordings are the unauthorized duplication of only the sound of legitimate recordings, as opposed to all the packaging, i.e. the original art, label, title, sequencing, combination of titles etc. This includes mixed tapes and compilation CDs featuring one or more artists.

Counterfeit recordings are unauthorized recordings of the prerecorded sound as well as the unauthorized duplication of original artwork, label, trademark and packaging.

Bootleg recordings (or underground recordings) are the unauthorized recordings of live concerts, or musical broadcasts on radio or television.

Online piracy is the unauthorized uploading of a copyrighted sound recording and making it available to the public, or downloading a sound recording from an Internet site, even if the recording isn't resold. Online piracy may now also include certain uses of "streaming" technologies from the Internet.

Many do not understand the significant negative impact of piracy on the music industry. Though it would appear that record companies are still making their money and that artists are still getting rich, these impressions are mere fallacies. Each sale by a pirate represents a lost legitimate sale, thereby depriving not only the record company of profits, but also the artist, producer, songwriter, publisher, retailer, … and the list goes on. The consumer is the ultimate victim, as pirated product is generally poorly manufactured and does not include the superior sound quality, art work, and insert information included in legitimate product.

Each year, the industry loses about $4.2 billion to piracy worldwide -- "we estimate we lose millions of dollars a day to all forms of piracy."

Music pirates are the first to lose because the recording industry and law enforcement officials are cracking down around the world. Do the crime and you will pay the fine or do the time.

Consumers also lose because the shortcut savings enjoyed by pirates drive up the costs of legitimate product for everyone. Plus, good luck returning a pirated tape or CD when the quality is inferior or the product is defective, as it often is.

Honest retailers (who back up the products they sell) lose because they can’t compete with the prices offered by illegal vendors. Less business means fewer jobs, jobs often filled by young adults.

Record companies lose. Eighty-five percent of recordings released don’t even generate enough revenue to cover their costs. Record companies depend heavily on the profitable fifteen percent of recordings to subsidize the less profitable types of music, to cover the costs of developing new artists, and to keep their businesses operational. The thieves often don’t focus on the eighty-five percent; they go straight to the top and steal the gold.

Finally, and perhaps most importantly, the creative artists lose. Musicians, singers, songwriters and producers don’t get the royalties and fees they’ve earned. Virtually all artists (95%) depend on these fees


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Posted: 06 Jul 06, 02:04 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

"Yet rest assured the pirates are out there because today there is plenty of gold (and platinum and diamonds) to be had. Today’s pirates operate not on the high seas but on the Internet, in illegal CD factories, distribution centers, and on the street. The pirate’s credo is still the same--why pay for it when it’s so easy to steal?"

One can not legitimately buy what never was legimitely for sale.

"Many do not understand the significant negative impact of piracy on the music industry. Though it would appear that record companies are still making their money and that artists are still getting rich, these impressions are mere fallacies. Each sale by a pirate represents a lost legitimate sale, thereby depriving not only the record company of profits, but also the artist, producer, songwriter, publisher, retailer, … and the list goes on."

Here, emphasis is on my money lost from pirate SALES. If an item is NEVER officially available for sale, then the music industry can not lose money for an item it NEVER sold.

Twelve years ago, it was legal to sell bootlegs. A search for "bootleg" on RIAA.com. Indicates that the RIAA is only enforcing SALES of bootlegs. They are going after the money: either sales of bootlegs, or illegal distribution of COPYRIGHTED product.

It is my view that QZ limits its legal risk by attempting to restrict downloads to bootleg material tha has never been released (and hence not copyrighted).

whether one agrees with QZ rules is immaterial. One should abide by the rules of the host (Queenzone).


Roger: I like it. If you don't. Sod you!



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Posted: 06 Jul 06, 04:01 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Rip Van Winkle wrote:

"Yet rest assured the pirates are out there because today there is plenty of gold (and platinum and diamonds) to be had. Today’s pirates operate not on the high seas but on the Internet, in illegal CD factories, distribution centers, and on the street. The pirate’s credo is still the same--why pay for it when it’s so easy to steal?"

One can not legitimately buy what never was legimitely for sale.

"Many do not understand the significant negative impact of piracy on the music industry. Though it would appear that record companies are still making their money and that artists are still getting rich, these impressions are mere fallacies. Each sale by a pirate represents a lost legitimate sale, thereby depriving not only the record company of profits, but also the artist, producer, songwriter, publisher, retailer, … and the list goes on."

Here, emphasis is on my money lost from pirate SALES. If an item is NEVER officially available for sale, then the music industry can not lose money for an item it NEVER sold.

Twelve years ago, it was legal to sell bootlegs. A search for "bootleg" on RIAA.com. Indicates that the RIAA is only enforcing SALES of bootlegs. They are going after the money: either sales of bootlegs, or illegal distribution of COPYRIGHTED product.

It is my view that QZ limits its legal risk by attempting to restrict downloads to bootleg material tha has never been released (and hence not copyrighted).

whether one agrees with QZ rules is immaterial. One should abide by the rules of the host (Queenzone).


The RIAA is trying to have this ammended as the ruling for the bootleg law is now not covered because copyright can only exist on fixed work.

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Posted: 06 Jul 06, 05:05 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Anything that has ever been available in whatever form as released by the band or an official recordcompany is officially released. Wether it is still available or not does NOT make a difference in copyright-law.

As said over and over again: don't debate with the people in here about this. It is not OUR WILL, it is not a matter of us agreeing or disagreeing. Our personal opinions about sharing is not important nor the issue. It's just the will of either the law as well as Queen Productions/EMI/Capitol/Hollywood Records etc.
If one wants to express different views that is fine, but complain/argue or debate with Queen Productions or whoever is the copyright-holder of the product. It is THEIR will that we don't share this product on the web!

I realy don't get it. Is this realy so difficult to understand? Why do we have to keep debating about this? Rules are rules - END - and don't start about other websites, because that is NOT the issue! QUEENZONE wishes to play by the rules and that's that.
Or do you think it is suddenly 'alright' to steal a car because 'ohters' do so too?

The reason people get flamed lately is because we have to say this over and over and over again and people STILL post official material. This issue is not difficult to understand! And if a person get's asked to delete something and does not do it or, dispite requests by the officials in here, post yet ANOTHER official product, we are running out of patience. Some people seem to understand only strong language - hence some people in here feel he need to use it if a normal tone is not sufficient enough.

p.s. UNreleased demo's, though PROPERTY of QP, are not COPYRIGHT PROTECTED, which makes a difference. Hence they ARE allowed - weather Brian personally likes it or not.

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Posted: 06 Jul 06, 07:45 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Should be left up to the poster. Their risk. It's certainly no risk to Queenzone. No files are hosted here.. unless it's a torrent.

A simple disclaimer negating responsibility of linked material to the forum users covers QZ's ass and then they may also cooperate with authorities in handing over IP info if the need arises.

Couple years ago we shared whole official tracks to compare quality of remasters, shared the entire karaoke set, anything that wasn't easily available in a particular country was fair game.

I suppose the paranoia is good.. to a degree, but I think there are trolls who just hang around looking for something to bitch about.. like one or two tracks being removed from an inferior quality video because they were released elsewhere "officially"? LOL. That first version of Houston we had was a joke. Tracks removed.. geez.

The torrents are the only thing I'd keep my eye on.. everything else is just links posted by individuals who can take responsability for their own actions.

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Posted: 06 Jul 06, 08:00 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Certainly there are some grey areas such as 'Soul Brother' or other no longer available items, however, that is not the issue.

The fact is people here are posting stuff that IS available, such as videos and tracks that you still can go and buy in the shops, so I think your trying to fudge the issue with nonsense here, sure there will be some things that slip through due to lack of awareness, but I think we are all aware of the majority of 'Official' stuff and that should be an end to it.

The powers that be i.e QP turn a blind eye to most of it, but the time will come when they will be forced to act to protect their interests, then we all lose out as the really interesting stuff will simply not be available.

Surely you people can see that if this continues, no company will allow a website to distribute there product for free.


"It is better to sit in silence and have people think you're a fool, then to open your mouth and remove all doubt"
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Posted: 06 Jul 06, 08:03 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

"Should be left up to the poster. Their risk. It's certainly no risk to Queenzone. No files are hosted here.. unless it's a torrent.

A simple disclaimer negating responsibility of linked material to the forum users covers QZ's ass and then they may also cooperate with authorities in handing over IP info if the need arises".

Not true, yes it can be a first line of defense, but it is not true to say Queenzone becomes immune, if a company feels strongly enough they can still take action.






"It is better to sit in silence and have people think you're a fool, then to open your mouth and remove all doubt"
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Posted: 06 Jul 06, 08:52 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

928 wrote:

Rip Van Winkle wrote:

"Yet rest assured the pirates are out there because today there is plenty of gold (and platinum and diamonds) to be had. Today’s pirates operate not on the high seas but on the Internet, in illegal CD factories, distribution centers, and on the street. The pirate’s credo is still the same--why pay for it when it’s so easy to steal?"

One can not legitimately buy what never was legimitely for sale.

"Many do not understand the significant negative impact of piracy on the music industry. Though it would appear that record companies are still making their money and that artists are still getting rich, these impressions are mere fallacies. Each sale by a pirate represents a lost legitimate sale, thereby depriving not only the record company of profits, but also the artist, producer, songwriter, publisher, retailer, … and the list goes on."

Here, emphasis is on my money lost from pirate SALES. If an item is NEVER officially available for sale, then the music industry can not lose money for an item it NEVER sold.

Twelve years ago, it was legal to sell bootlegs. A search for "bootleg" on RIAA.com. Indicates that the RIAA is only enforcing SALES of bootlegs. They are going after the money: either sales of bootlegs, or illegal distribution of COPYRIGHTED product.

It is my view that QZ limits its legal risk by attempting to restrict downloads to bootleg material tha has never been released (and hence not copyrighted).

whether one agrees with QZ rules is immaterial. One should abide by the rules of the host (Queenzone).


The RIAA is trying to have this ammended as the ruling for the bootleg law is now not covered because copyright can only exist on fixed work.


Can you please provide a link for this 928? Thanks


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Queen song poll: http://home.comcast.net/~vantricers/index.html



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Posted: 06 Jul 06, 09:54 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

go to www.torrentspy.com EVERYTHING they have on there is illegal. i do not see why our site could not have illegal things because you cant get in trouble if those sites dont