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Togg user not visiting Queenzone.com
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Posted: 07 Jul 06, 07:47 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Today marks the first anniversary of the London bombings, looking at the faces of the victims and knowing all too well what it's like to travel to London each day on the trains and tube, how do you not view Muslims with suspicion, and fall into the racist trap?

Since September 11th 2001 our world has changed completely, the wars that seemed far away were brought to our doors (rightly or wrongly) and we are now faced with terrorism in the UK on a scale not seen since the 1970's IRA threats.

How do you go about your daily business without viewing people from Muslim countries with suspicion? I know I can't, and I like (or at least used) to think of myself as non racist, but now I view far too many with suspicion and sometimes rage.

I know this is stupid to do so and I know I will probably never see a terrorist in the flesh, but somehow I still can't get over this preconception that I have to view all Muslims with suspicion.

So has their attacks on western soil effectively backfired, our we now all the more ready to fight back? do we not view more and more people as possible threats? I don't know, it's a sad situation and I have no answer, sure the war was wrong and both the US and the UK have contributed much to making this happen, but we are not totally to blame, there is a much bigger story here than simply oil, and CIA involvement in other countries politics.

In the end we are all losers.

Sorry to make a rather negative post but today of all days we (at least in the UK) should think a little about the bigger picture.


"It is better to sit in silence and have people think you're a fool, then to open your mouth and remove all doubt"
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Posted: 07 Jul 06, 07:55 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Oh yeah, shit!!!!!!!!

First of all, I have to say... My deepest simpathys to the familys of the people that died in the bombings.

R.I.P

I also want to say, that this world is so evil, you are not safe anymore. I doubt it will ever be a safe place, ever again....

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Posted: 07 Jul 06, 08:05 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

I live in NYC. I'm used to seeing people of different races and religions all around. Never fazed me. If anything, I value the uniqueness and have taught my daughter to respect and admire those who will stick to their traditional values despite how 'modern' the world becomes.

But to your point, yes, since 9/11 I have been wary of Muslims. I am especially leery of the growing number of women in my neighborhood who are wearing the traditional Muslim headscarves. They walk down major streets with everything covered but their eyes. I find myself growing angry when I see them and when my daughter asks why I feel that way, I can't explain it. What am I teaching her? That because the most vocal Muslims are anti-West we should fear/dislike/fight them all? Were all Germans Nazis?

I think the answer to your question is a logical one in theory but cannot be easily practiced. IMO, not becoming a racist depends on all sides cooperating equally. If non-extremist Muslims feel as non-Muslims do about terrorism they should denounce it. Loudly. We so often wait for clerics to come out and say Bin Laden and the attacks around the world are inexcusable. Sometimes they do, but often in brief exchanges and subtle tones. Unless you're listening hard, you're not going to hear it. And who would put such energy into listening to someone they already see as a hater?

Hate breeds hate and while we must be vigilant in our fight for freedom (though without another debacle like Iraq), I don't believe tensions between "us" and "them" will lessen any time soon. Especially when you consider how a cartoon can turn an ordinary day into a day - month - of rioting and more.



"The others don't like my interviews. And frankly, I don't care much for theirs." ~ Freddie Mercury



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Posted: 07 Jul 06, 08:21 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Since when is "Muslim" considered a "race"?


[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Jake? wrote: I want him to shove it down my throat and shoot. Shoot! Shoot! C'mon! SHOOT! SHOOT!

[/QUOTENAME]



[/QUOTE]







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Posted: 07 Jul 06, 09:07 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Look up the criminal statistics in your country and calculate your risk of being murdered by a native Christian for money or be run over by a drunk British driver compared to your risk of being killed by a terror attack with an Islamistic background. Of course, if you are killed because someone needs money for drugs you won't make it on national TV news.

I am not downplaying your fears - it would be stupid to ignore the danger but we should be aware of the role of the media shaping our view of the world. There is always an agenda behind TV and newspaper news - even if it's only the price they can ask for commercials.

You would NOT hold white Christians in general accountable if your neighbour is killed by a white Christian person but then the news would not say : the killer was of white Christian background...

The racism is in us before the crime happens. It is so much easier to be a racist than not to be a racist. The fear of the stranger is so deeply rooted in our collective subconscious - it is very easy to appeal to this fear. We overcome racism by education and with our intelligence but our instincts work against that and we feel threatened so much more when a "stranger" killed one of "us". The only way not to become a racist is educating ourselves and not falling for the cheap "answers" we are offered by media and certain politicians. There are no "rogue" countries or races.



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Posted: 07 Jul 06, 09:07 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

How? Common sense?

Peace out.


Killed by drones.
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Posted: 07 Jul 06, 09:07 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

[echooo]


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Posted: 07 Jul 06, 09:08 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

<font color=pink>The Millionaire Waltz wrote:

Since when is "Muslim" considered a "race"?

Good question, it's a religion not a bloody race. Shows how much mr Togg nows about the subject.


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Posted: 07 Jul 06, 09:18 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

<b><font color="green">The Fairy King wrote:

<font color=pink>The Millionaire Waltz wrote:

Since when is "Muslim" considered a "race"?

Good question, it's a religion not a bloody race. Shows how much mr Togg nows about the subject.


Err, I don't think I ever said it was a race did I. shows how well you two can read!


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Posted: 07 Jul 06, 09:19 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

<b><font color="green">The Fairy King wrote:

<font color=pink>The Millionaire Waltz wrote:

Since when is "Muslim" considered a "race"?

Good question, it's a religion not a bloody race. Shows how much mr Togg nows about the subject.


Islam is the religion. Muslim is the person practicing the religion.


"The others don't like my interviews. And frankly, I don't care much for theirs." ~ Freddie Mercury



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Posted: 07 Jul 06, 09:21 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

I live in the New York metro area and even after September 11 the typical New Yorker wiseguy scared me far more than the average Muslim.

Everytime I hear some douchebag says something like:
- WAT DA FUCKS DA MATTA WIT CHA!!
I feel more wary than when I cross paths with a person wearing a turban.


[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Brandon wrote: [/QUOTENAME]... and now the "best you can offer is Mr. Jingles? HA! He's... just pathetic.[/QUOTE]
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Posted: 07 Jul 06, 09:37 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

YourValentine wrote:

Look up the criminal statistics in your country and calculate your risk of being murdered by a native Christian for money or be run over by a drunk British driver compared to your risk of being killed by a terror attack with an Islamistic background. Of course, if you are killed because someone needs money for drugs you won't make it on national TV news.

I am not downplaying your fears - it would be stupid to ignore the danger but we should be aware of the role of the media shaping our view of the world. There is always an agenda behind TV and newspaper news - even if it's only the price they can ask for commercials.

You would NOT hold white Christians in general accountable if your neighbour is killed by a white Christian person but then the news would not say : the killer was of white Christian background...

The racism is in us before the crime happens. It is so much easier to be a racist than not to be a racist. The fear of the stranger is so deeply rooted in our collective subconscious - it is very easy to appeal to this fear. We overcome racism by education and with our intelligence but our instincts work against that and we feel threatened so much more when a "stranger" killed one of "us". The only way not to become a racist is educating ourselves and not falling for the cheap "answers" we are offered by media and certain politicians. There are no "rogue" countries or races.


Good point, I am at least certain that my fears, if you call them that, are not rational, it is more a case of becoming more aware of the fact that danger lurks not just in dark corners, I think it's all tied up with becoming a father in the last five years, you become much more aware of the world and it's dangers when you have little people to look after, when it's just you, you adopt a more relaxed attitude, however when you seen families blown apart you can't help but stop and think how it would effect you. hence you view more things with suspicion.

It is not really a question as such I am just interested to hear peoples views on the matter, but as we can see it's already been lowered by the numpties here that can't get there little heads around the English language! pity I was hoping for an interesting debate rather than the usual...


"It is better to sit in silence and have people think you're a fool, then to open your mouth and remove all doubt"
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Posted: 07 Jul 06, 10:17 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

I know what you mean: being unable to protect your child is the worst that can happen to you.
As 20th century (born) individuals we think we should be in control of what happens to us and our loved ones. Incidents like the attacks from last year make it very obvious that it's virtually impossible to be in control of your environment. The randomness of the attacks make you a possible victim no matter what your personal attitude towards Afghanistan, Iraq etc. might be.

But what does it have to do wíth racism? Any statistics will show you that children are abused or killed by people they know, in most cases relatives. When you read about kids being abused by relatives or killed by their own mother you won't worry it will happen to your children because you are in control of your environment (or so you think). But victims of terror attacks are random and that is what makes you fear and fear causes hatred. Racism is just a form of fear turned into hatred. You say it's not rational but the origin of fear is not rational in many cases, it is instinct. We all have to reconcile our instinctive reactions with the civilized environment we live in. It's just when this civilized society is disrupted by attacks like last year (or war or natural catastrophes) we have a problem to control our instinctive fears.


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Posted: 07 Jul 06, 10:31 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

magicalfreddiemercury wrote:

I live in NYC. I'm used to seeing people of different races and religions all around. Never fazed me. If anything, I value the uniqueness and have taught my daughter to respect and admire those who will stick to their traditional values despite how 'modern' the world becomes.

But to your point, yes, since 9/11 I have been wary of Muslims. I am especially leery of the growing number of women in my neighborhood who are wearing the traditional Muslim headscarves. They walk down major streets with everything covered but their eyes. I find myself growing angry when I see them and when my daughter asks why I feel that way, I can't explain it. What am I teaching her? That because the most vocal Muslims are anti-West we should fear/dislike/fight them all? Were all Germans Nazis?

I think the answer to your question is a logical one in theory but cannot be easily practiced. IMO, not becoming a racist depends on all sides cooperating equally. If non-extremist Muslims feel as non-Muslims do about terrorism they should denounce it. Loudly. We so often wait for clerics to come out and say Bin Laden and the attacks around the world are inexcusable. Sometimes they do, but often in brief exchanges and subtle tones. Unless you're listening hard, you're not going to hear it. And who would put such energy into listening to someone they already see as a hater?

Hate breeds hate and while we must be vigilant in our fight for freedom (though without another debacle like Iraq), I don't believe tensions between "us" and "them" will lessen any time soon. Especially when you consider how a cartoon can turn an ordinary day into a day - month - of rioting and more.


Oh yes, the danish Cartoon scandal.
Some of Denmarks big buisnises like Arla almost broke down, and stuff like that :S.. Perhaps they´re taking it a bit too hard, but I still dont see why we had to put those things in the papers.. It was a perfect "excuse" for a terror attack, and it was like putting fire on a bomb! In the following month, I was scared all the time that there would be something in Copenhagen, since that´s where my father lives.. Perhaps the danger has driven over yet, I dont know.
Terror sucks, and I cant see why Bush and Whomever is the "leader" of the muslim world dont just take a fight in a boxingring (you get my point..)..



O_o
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Posted: 07 Jul 06, 10:44 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

You are absolutely right YV in your summary, it technically has nothing to do with racism, but there IS an irrational fear that follows these things.

To be honest I firmly believe we are ALL racist in one way or another, be it a preconceived notion about another country or simple jokes based on race, i.e the Englishman the Irishman and the Scottishman type of thing, we don't like to think of ourselves as racist but we are, it's in our nature to want to belong to our own community and distrust others, we get over it by supporting teams in made up games like football, (then of course it can come out wide into the open) but anyone that tells you they are not racist is not being true to either you or themselves, (I know a lot will disagree here maybe you too) but the fact is we all harbour thoughts based on preconceived notions on other races, even if it's as simple as not liking the French because they always seem to be on strike when we want to fly into their airspace!

You are correct with the crime statistics I am certain if I should be killed or injured by another it is far more likely to be a white male christian aged between 18 -35 but that somehow seems less focused when you pick up the papers everyday and read about how many die in Iraq each day, you can't help in turn thinking about what effect this has on vast numbers of people that feel strongly about the American (and thus British) involvement over there.

What must it be like to wake up each day thinking America is attacking and invading your fellow countrymen? it would make you want to do something about it unless you agreed with them, and clearly many don't, to then take that to it's logical conclusion you realise that in their eyes at least westerners become legitimate targets.

I guess this stems from first finding out someone I knew was most likely killed in the sept 11th attacks, then working in London and realising we were bound to be next, then trying to work out how to go about daily life.

My decision was to carry on as normal as any sane person would, but on days like today it focuses the mind, and I defy anyone to travel on the tubes and buses in London today, not to look and stare if a young eastern man with a rucksack gets on.

Don't get me wrong I don't go around thinking about this all day everyday, I just felt today that it was something we should talk about being a world community here on Queenzone.


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Posted: 07 Jul 06, 10:52 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

I'd just keep my mouth shut, I'm ALWAYS beeing told:

"If you haven't got anything nice to say, don't say nothing at all"


Nothing matters when knowing nothing matters;;

It's just life so keep dancing through;;
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Posted: 07 Jul 06, 11:04 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Togg wrote:

You are absolutely right YV in your summary, it technically has nothing to do with racism, but there IS an irrational fear that follows these things.

To be honest I firmly believe we are ALL racist in one way or another, be it a preconceived notion about another country or simple jokes based on race, i.e the Englishman the Irishman and the Scottishman type of thing, we don't like to think of ourselves as racist but we are, it's in our nature to want to belong to our own community and distrust others, we get over it by supporting teams in made up games like football, (then of course it can come out wide into the open) but anyone that tells you they are not racist is not being true to either you or themselves, (I know a lot will disagree here maybe you too) but the fact is we all harbour thoughts based on preconceived notions on other races, even if it's as simple as not liking the French because they always seem to be on strike when we want to fly into their airspace!

You are correct with the crime statistics I am certain if I should be killed or injured by another it is far more likely to be a white male christian aged between 18 -35 but that somehow seems less focused when you pick up the papers everyday and read about how many die in Iraq each day, you can't help in turn thinking about what effect this has on vast numbers of people that feel strongly about the American (and thus British) involvement over there.

What must it be like to wake up each day thinking America is attacking and invading your fellow countrymen? it would make you want to do something about it unless you agreed with them, and clearly many don't, to then take that to it's logical conclusion you realise that in their eyes at least westerners become legitimate targets.

I guess this stems from first finding out someone I knew was most likely killed in the sept 11th attacks, then working in London and realising we were bound to be next, then trying to work out how to go about daily life.

My decision was to carry on as normal as any sane person would, but on days like today it focuses the mind, and I defy anyone to travel on the tubes and buses in London today, not to look and stare if a young eastern man with a rucksack gets on.

Don't get me wrong I don't go around thinking about this all day everyday, I just felt today that it was something we should talk about being a world community here on Queenzone.


You must have a nice life with your paranoia pal. Reading the paper is one thing, believing every story, word for word, is another. Look behind the public image of the Muslims, caused by the terrorism-hype since 9/11. The few rotten apples that caused all this crap to happen aren't around the corner to get you.
You know all religions have extremists, but the main focus in the media is on the Muslim extremists and you KNOW it's wrong and absurd to be suspicious of every Arab person with a backpack.

The educated Muslims are dismissive about all the terrorism and the Jihad. But do you see or read about them? Of course not, that doesn't sell! Fear sells. And the UNeducated West people from Europe and America are racist or have a very negative opinion about the Muslims/Arabs. Most racists/right-wing extremists i've spoken/seen/read about are extremely stupid or have a few screws loose. If you can think straight you KNOW not every Mid Eastern person is a terrorist or is gonna blow him/herself up in your neighborhood. Why are people afraid to fly, while the chance you die in a train/car/bus accident is much bigger.


Killed by drones.
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Posted: 07 Jul 06, 11:12 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Yet again you seem to have missed the point of the post, I am not saying I go around thinking about this all the time, I am simply asking the question, 'how does it make you feel?'

The point of this was to discuss the effects of the bombing and subsequent media on us, nobody mentioned anything about taking it at face value.




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Posted: 07 Jul 06, 11:32 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

<b><font color="green">The Fairy King wrote:


The educated Muslims are dismissive about all the terrorism and the Jihad. But do you see or read about them? Of course not, that doesn't sell!


This brought something to mind...

Bill Cosby. For ages he spoke out for the black minority. Recently, he began speaking out in a different way. Telling the black community to take more responsibility, etc. for their lot in life. To stay in school. To speak appropriately. To act with self-respect.

His comments were shot down. The loud minority of people who disagreed with him let it be known, while those who felt he was saying all the right things, remained silent. How much more powerful would his message have been if other respected elders echoed his sentiments?

It's the same, IMO, with the educated Muslims you mention. They've remained comparatively silent. They're not going out there to demonstrate or take back their 'hijacked' religion. It's hard to hear the other side when the other side simply shakes their collective head dismissing the violence, hatred and terror.



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Posted: 07 Jul 06, 12:17 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Togg wrote:

Yet again you seem to have missed the point of the post, I am not saying I go around thinking about this all the time, I am simply asking the question, 'how does it make you feel?'

The point of this was to discuss the effects of the bombing and subsequent media on us, nobody mentioned anything about taking it at face value.



That wozn't only aimed at you.


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