Forums > Queen - Serious Discussion > My reply to GB re: Queen II

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John S Stuart user not visiting Queenzone.com
John S Stuart
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Posted: 11 Jul 06, 09:09 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Dear Greg,

Thank you for taking the time to read my gibberish. I accept your charge that I am no fount of ‘privileged’ Queen Knowledge, but I have always believed that anything I can do to teach or to question perceived wisdom, in any sphere of life, is a good thing.

For example, I remember being asked if I considered the film ‘Shindler’s List’ “entertainment”.
I replied ‘yes’, because the film helped me to ‘entertain’ thoughts I may have otherwise never engaged, and even though the film can be criticised as being ‘inaccurate in some places’, the overall themes of the film, (the greater picture if you like) still stand true. The same is true in here, especially in relation to the Queen II album.

This is a fan-site.
It is moderated, produced and dedicated to all things Queen. So your example, ‘I don't come onto this site and start offering definitive data on the latest medical breakthru's (SIC), or upon Sony's latest DVD player, or Renault's plans for a secret milk-powered car…’ does not hold water, as in HERE is the very place we DO meet to speculate, to comment, and yes, sometimes even think out-side the Stepfordised Queen box.

Perhaps you are correct in that I am NOT 100% certain.
I confess to mistakes, (I thought only the Pope was infallible), and I also agree that my personal knowledge shades into insignificance with your own, but this is not some brainiac site discussing the nuances of nuclear physics, or considering the life and death threats of surgical transplant operations – although I guess there are in fact sites dedicated to such topics – so placing a Queen archive in such a league is in itself laughable, but, of THAT which I AM certain and can say with some degree of assurety - I am indeed correct.

It is from this ‘original’ foundation of correctness, that I am able to extrapolate and complete the next step in the sequence, and I can assure you that this is based on much more than guesses and speculation. I concede that you may be privileged to ‘hidden’ information, but as by its very nature this is for me an ‘unknown variable’, I can not be faulted for not taking that into account.

Let me take you through my thinking…



"Listen to them. Children of the night. What music they make."
John S Stuart user not visiting Queenzone.com
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Posted: 11 Jul 06, 09:09 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

1: Begin with the facts.

1974
Queen II
Recorded Trident Studios August 1973. Released UK 8th March 1974, US 9th April 1974.
Line-up: Freddie Mercury (vocals), Brian May (guitar), Roger Taylor (drums), John Deacon (bass).
Produced by Roy Thomas Baker & Queen: except Nevermore, produced by Robin Geoffrey Cable & Queen. March Of The Black Queen produced by Roy Thomas Baker, Robin Geoffrey Cable & Queen. Engineered by Mike Stone.

Procession
Album Version 1:17 - Queen II: EMI CDP 7 46205 2
1998 eYe Stereo 1:12 Remix - Electronic Arts DDE05501 101S
Golder’s Green Demo version - Unreleased: Wanted

Father To Son
Album Version - Queen II: EMI CDP 7 46205 2
Exposed Hybrid 5:49 Ending - Exposed MC C-EXP 0491
Starlicks Video Edit - Starlicks Video

White Queen
Album Version - Queen II: EMI CDP 7 46205 2
7" Single - 3" CDS EMI QUE CD5 (First EP)
BBC 03.04.1974 (4:41) - Unreleased: Home Mini-Disc
Brian May 1968 home demo - Unreleased

Someday, One day
Album Version - Queen II: EMI CDP 7 46205 2

Loser In The End
Album Version - Queen II: EMI CDP 7 46205 2

Ogre Battle
Album Version - Queen II: EMI CDP 7 46205 2
BBC 03.12.1973 (4:01) - Queen At The Beeb: BOJCD 001
BBC 03.12.1973 Long Lost Intro - Ultimate Collection: Royalty Music RMCD 001
BBC 03.12.1973 Restored Hybrid (5:12) - Unreleased: Home Mini-Disc
1991 Nicholas Sansano 3:30 Remix - Queen II: US 1991 Hollywood HR-61232-2
Intro Edit: 35” - Total Guitar CD Magazine

Fairy Feller's Master Stroke
Album Version - Queen II: EMI CDP 7 46205 2

Nevermore
Album Version - Queen II: EMI CDP 7 46205 2
BBC 03.04.1974 (1:27) - Unreleased: Home Mini-Disc
Electric Piano Version - Unreleased: Home Mini-Disc

March Of The Black Queen
Album Version - Queen II: EMI CDP 7 46205 2
BBC 03.04.1974 (6:25) - (Queen II: Album version)
Starlicks Video Edit - Starlicks Video

Funny How Love Is
Album Version - Queen II: EMI CDP 7 46205 2
Japan 3” CDs (2:53) - Japan 3" CDS EMI TODP 2251
UK 3” CD Single Version (3:15) -
Digital Master Sampler Edit (2:51) -
Original (1st Press) Cassette Tape Mix - Queen II: TC M-M EMI TC EMA 767

Seven Seas Of Rhye
Album Version - Queen II: EMI CDP 7 46205 2
1991 Freddie Bastone 6:43 Remix - Queen II: US 1991 Hollywood HR-61232-2
Withdrawn Test Press - Unreleased: As It Began p75
Top Of The Pops BBC TV Original - Erased:
US Hollywood Promotional Video - Unreleased: Home Video
Top Of The Pops BBC TV Video - Unreleased: Home Video

See What A Fool I've Been
Album/ 7" Version 4:36 - Queen II: US 1991 Hollywood HR-61232-2
BBC 25.07.1973 (4:17) - Freddie's Boys At The Beeb: Bulsara Records
See What A Fool I’ve Been - Smile: Royal Albert Hall 27th February 1969

Queen: Unreleased BBC Radio Session, 3rd April 1974
Recorded 03.04.1974. Broadcast 15.04.1974. Studio Langham 1, Bob Harris Sounds Of The Seventies. Produced by Pete Ritzema, Engineer unknown.
Modern Times Rock ‘n Roll
Nevermore
White Queen
March Of The Black Queen

2: Extrapolation of available information.

The eponymous Queen Debut album was recorded June – Nov 1972.
On both 6th November, and 20 December 1972, Queen performed live in London.
On both 13th and 23rd July 1973, Queen performed live in Basingstoke and London.
Queen II was Recorded at Trident Studios August 1973 (Sleeve info).
Between 13th September – 2nd January 1973, Queen were performing live in their (mainly UK) tour.
The early part of 1974 (1st March – 11th May) Queen were heavily involved in their UK/US tour.
The Sheer Heart Attack LP was recorded between July – September 1974 at Trident, Wessex, Rockfield and Air Studios

3: Interpret this data.

Queen II was recorded during a very short window of opportunity in August (Definitely post 23rd July - pre 13th September) 1973, at Trident studios for the Sheffield brothers as a contractual obligation. ('Death On Two Legs').
As a sti


"Listen to them. Children of the night. What music they make."
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Posted: 11 Jul 06, 09:40 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Well said john great reply i feel very strongly about this and all other things regarding the archives and you are again spot on in your views and like i said in the previous post Greg or qp need to either confirm or deny what you have said so the chinese whispers on certain things ceases to exist and also GB can gives us some new useful info to hear.

For example and this is only an example there were 18 songs recorded for SHA album but there are 4 still unreleased or unfinished songs.

That i would love to hear as it would make me wonder and anticipate the release even more.


Yes we'll keep on tryin

we'll tread that fine line

oh oh we'll keep on tryin

till the end of time

till the end of time.



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Posted: 11 Jul 06, 13:17 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

John, that was impeccable.


--

Gnomo

(... any way the wind blows ...)
John S Stuart user not visiting Queenzone.com
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Posted: 11 Jul 06, 13:22 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

As so few people have replied, I have been looking for an excuse to bump this thread, so here it is...


"Listen to them. Children of the night. What music they make."
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Posted: 11 Jul 06, 15:13 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Great reply John. I hope that Greg will react soon.....or maybe we have to wait 6 weeks when Greg is on the board again ;)

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Posted: 11 Jul 06, 16:05 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

I think we must realize that it's senseless. A reasonable conversation with the Archivist on this board will not happen. Don't waste your time. Ignore him like all the other spammers on here.


"I'm a great believer in actually NOT giving people what they want"

Brian May, 11 March 05
Sebastian user not visiting Queenzone.com
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Posted: 11 Jul 06, 18:41 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Nice reply, but I disagree with a couple of things:

White Queen - Brian's words (as he said in the soapbox) were that he wrote it in college and the song found its way much later on the second album. He didn't say that they had little material or he *had to* revert to an old pre-Queen demo. It's quite the opposite: Roger said before they recorded Queen II that they'd got enough written material for two and a half albums.

Seven Seas wasn't a case of filling gaps either, as Roger and Fred said (BBC Radio 2, xmas '77), they intended to start off the album with the complete version of the song, an eventually dropped idea, but the fact is that neither White Queen nor Seven Seas nor See What A Fool nor Ogre Battle (which is an early gem as well) were put there to make up for limited material.

Having said that, I agree that within a month of recordings they wouldn't be able to do much more than the masterpieces they released.


But all of that are just small details, now to the big one:

The Pope infallible? Come on!!!


John hated HS. Fred's fave singer was not PR. Roger didn't compose 'Innuendo.' Witness testimonies are often inaccurate. Scotland's not in England. 'Bo Rhap' hasn't got 180 voices.
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Posted: 11 Jul 06, 18:59 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Sebastian wrote:

Nice reply, but I disagree with a couple of things:

White Queen - Brian's words (as he said in the soapbox) were that he wrote it in college and the song found its way much later on the second album. He didn't say that they had little material or he *had to* revert to an old pre-Queen demo.

It's quite the opposite: Roger said before they recorded Queen II that they'd got enough written material for two and a half albums.


Correct - but both these statements are seperate, and were said at different times - so although you are correct - it does NOT automatically mean 'White Queen' was one of those Eponymous Queen refugees. (Although it would still make sense if it was).
I interpret "the song found its way much later on the second album" to mean, it was indeed one of the final tracks to be considered, however, apart from Brian's ambiguious statement, I can not really prove it - but we both know a man who can - and we both know he will not solve this for us.

Sebastian wrote:

Seven Seas wasn't a case of filling gaps either, as Roger and Fred said (BBC Radio 2, xmas '77), they intended to start off the album with the complete version of the song, an eventually dropped idea, but the fact is that neither White Queen nor Seven Seas nor See What A Fool nor Ogre Battle (which is an early gem as well) were put there to make up for limited material.


Again, you are correct, it was always the idea that the demo of 'Seven Seas...' would end one album, and the full version begin the other. As far as we can tell - it seems this idea was droped at a fairly late stage. You are also correct about Ogre Battle and See What A Fool, as these tracks were also considered strong enough to be part of the highly publicised BBC sessions (although recorded at a later date).

In fact Seb, your mail is very reasonable, and I think for effect, I may have somewhat exaggerated my point, but the central thrust still remains, because of both time and financial restraints, much of the material on Queen II had to be re-cycled - rather than an album of fully newly written masterpieces.

Sebastian wrote:

Having said that, I agree that within a month of recordings they wouldn't be able to do much more than the masterpieces they released.


That was one of my main points.
That and,
"I am already on record as saying; “It is true some demos do exist - but only as incomplete/variations of the tracks we already know about”. Apart from minor edits or fragments, how does this differ from your own interpretation - "There are NOT... demos... merely... remixes and remnants and fragments... By 'Remixes'...I mean just a mix different to the familiar"?"

Sebastian wrote:

But all of that are just small details, now to the big one:

The Pope infallible? Come on!!!


It was the Pope who told me that "Denmark won the World Cup two days ago"!

Apart from minute details, (some of which we will never fully know) it is good to see that we agree with the bigger picture, and not sqabbling over minor trivialities.


"Listen to them. Children of the night. What music they make."
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Posted: 11 Jul 06, 19:52 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

SORRY FOR MY ENGLISH.... I WANT TO WRITE ONLY 1 THING!


Dear Greg,
I collect Queen since 1988, I was 8 years old at that time, and I read and hear mnay stories about unreleased material by people claim to have it, like JSS and many others!

JSS is the ONLY ONE who try to put a list of waht can exist and wjat not! Many information are incorrect, everybody know that, and JJS (I hope) know that!

But he's the only one who try to do this thing and we apreciate him!

Why you don't put a list here with this mistery? You work for Queen Production, you hear the tapes... so why not don't post the research you doing and share this with the people who BUY THE QUEEN MATERIAL?

We trust in JSS because he write a list...

Tell us something, but not many words, a little list of the demo/different mix of Queen recording for the first 2 albums, for example... it's a good start! :)

Thank you very much and good works in the Queen Archive!

Ale

PS If you want an helping hand for hear and catalogate the tapes contact me! :)

PPS Sorry for my terrible english but I hope you understand!


Sorry for my english! :(
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Posted: 11 Jul 06, 21:04 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

> much of the material on Queen II had to be re cycled - rather than an album of fully newly written masterpieces.

Well ... it's all about semantics then, but I think we're on the same page. More than re-cycling material (a la Made In Heaven), I see that they saved up some of those efforts (Ogre Battle, White Queen and probably some more) for the time they could have more studio time and experience. Wise choice indeed. Remember both Brian and Freddie have been known for keeping some songs for a while before recording: Champions, Tie Your Mother Down, All Dead All Dead, even All God's People (albeit perhaps because of different reasons).

Greg cleverly or unconsciously (or both) actually confirmed what your sound and deep research had already told us.

> It was the Pope who told me that "Denmark won the World Cup two days ago"!

I can't say I'm surprised: the nasty old fart speaks seven languages but none of them are Scandinavian. Too hard for his narrow-minded personality maybe?


John hated HS. Fred's fave singer was not PR. Roger didn't compose 'Innuendo.' Witness testimonies are often inaccurate. Scotland's not in England. 'Bo Rhap' hasn't got 180 voices.
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Posted: 11 Jul 06, 21:24 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Sebastian wrote:

> much of the material on Queen II had to be re cycled - rather than an album of fully newly written masterpieces.

Well ... it's all about semantics then, but I think we're on the same page. More than re-cycling material (a la Made In Heaven), I see that they saved up some of those efforts (Ogre Battle, White Queen and probably some more) for the time they could have more studio time and experience.


I agree with you - I think we are on the same page also, and I certainly did not mean to imply recycle in the 'Made In Heaven' sense - but you saw that, and you also saw that regardless of the limitations - 'Queen II' is still a masterpiece considering how quickly and (relatively) cheaply it was made.

Sebastian wrote:

> Greg cleverly or unconsciously (or both) actually confirmed what your sound and deep research had already told us.


Thank you - I will take that as a compliment. As I said at the top of the page: I have always believed that anything I can do to teach or to question perceived wisdom, in any sphere of life, is a good thing.

In the end it is not about me, it is not about Greg, it is not about who is right or wrong, however, if this page has done nothing, but sparked a debate among like-minded fans, then that for me is the real reward.


"Listen to them. Children of the night. What music they make."
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Posted: 11 Jul 06, 22:42 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

John,

First of all, let me say that was a great post that I hope Greg responds to sooner rather than later.

I have a suggestion for you. To prove a point to the doubters (specifically Greg and others who may exist), perhaps you might consider uploading a 10 second extract of one of your rare recordings; possibly either “Hangman” or “Batteries Not Included”.

The benefit of such an upload would be there for all to see - you prove a very important point to Queen Productions and Mr Brooks in one swift move, while retaining the monetary value of your collection at the same time.

Finally, you could see it as a reward to all of the people here on Queenzone who have repeatedly defended you and fought your corner over the years. I’m sure a quick snippet wouldn’t hurt – most of us will probably pop our clogs (sorry Brian!) without hearing these tracks otherwise…!

All the best,

Ian.


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Posted: 11 Jul 06, 23:11 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

this is all Geek talk. One is a kind man with lots of info to offer, and the other one is a son of a bitch....


:)
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Posted: 12 Jul 06, 00:18 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Same plot six weeks later (I hate reruns):

1. Greg poops on John
2. QZ (me too) takes bait (as indicated by P_G)
3. John offers olive branch.
4. Greg ignores olive branch.
5. Greg complains about treatment on QZ.
6. Greg disappears for 6 weeks.



Roger: I like it. If you don't. Sod you!



Queen song poll: http://home.comcast.net/~vantricers/index.html



B-52's: I, I, I'm lookin for some fun - waitin for the REAL Queen Box Sets to come
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Posted: 12 Jul 06, 01:41 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

what is olive branch?


:)
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Posted: 12 Jul 06, 05:11 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Still no reply from Greg... sad.

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Posted: 12 Jul 06, 05:39 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

I'm not surprised.


Killed by drones.
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Posted: 12 Jul 06, 06:29 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Come on Greg, if you want respect (and you seem to crave it) you'd better stand by you statement!


"It is better to sit in silence and have people think you're a fool, then to open your mouth and remove all doubt"
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Posted: 12 Jul 06, 07:38 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

John has given an impeccable explanation, Greg. It's your job to respond, or can't you do it?


hj