Forums > Fan mixes > Play The Game (Fickle Orchestral Version)

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Lord Fickle user not visiting Queenzone.com

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Posted: 29 Aug 06, 14:53 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Don't know if this has been done before, but thought I'd give it a try, and it turned out quite well, I think. This is Freddie, Brian and the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra!

http://rapidshare.de/files/31241114/Play_The_Game__Fickle_Orchestral_Mix__-_Amended.mp3

Please leave your comments! I might do a couple more of these if people like this one.


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Daniel vZ user not visiting Queenzone.com

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Posted: 29 Aug 06, 15:19 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Fits very well I think, but the "yeah" with the guitar solo (first one) sounds a bit misplaced imo, but the rest sounds (in my ears) great!


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Posted: 29 Aug 06, 15:27 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

beautiful, i love it

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Posted: 29 Aug 06, 15:33 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

I really like it, could you do some more mixes of this kind?
However, I do feel that the vocals are a bit too load compared to the orchestra, certainly during the first verse.


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Posted: 29 Aug 06, 15:49 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Daniel vZ wrote:

Fits very well I think, but the "yeah" with the guitar solo (first one) sounds a bit misplaced imo, but the rest sounds (in my ears) great!


Yeah, I know what you mean. It would take a lot of fiddling about to change that now. If you listen to it a few times, it does kind of fit in. Unfortunately, the orchestra tempo varies slightly in places, so it was quite painstaking to get it all synchronised. It took 4 bloody hours all in all!!

Johan wrote:

I do feel that the vocals are a bit too load compared to the orchestra, certainly during the first verse.


Really? I thought it was quite well balanced. I actually mixed down the vocals, because they were too loud throughout. I suppose I could have fiddled with it a bit more, but it sounds OK to me.


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Posted: 29 Aug 06, 15:51 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Daniel vZ wrote:

Fits very well I think, but the "yeah" with the guitar solo (first one) sounds a bit misplaced imo, but the rest sounds (in my ears) great!


Exactly my thoughts. It did sound great and very nice overall. But the only other bit that really annoyed my ears was at 3:09 when that huge surge in the vocal at the hi-end is just a bit nasty. Needs cut at a frequency like 2-4kHz and a lowering in volume in relation to the backing track. Otherwise, it works well.

And there I was thinking it was just another ptg track with those good old solo'd vocals! Yaaay... but it actually was good stuff.

Peace,
Adam.

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Posted: 29 Aug 06, 16:01 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Daniel vZ wrote:

Fits very well I think, but the "yeah" with the guitar solo (first one) sounds a bit misplaced imo, but the rest sounds (in my ears) great!

Adam Baboolal wrote:

Exactly my thoughts. It did sound great and very nice overall. But the only other bit that really annoyed my ears was at 3:09 when that huge surge in the vocal at the hi-end is just a bit nasty. Needs cut at a frequency like 2-4kHz and a lowering in volume in relation to the backing track. Otherwise, it works well.

And there I was thinking it was just another ptg track with those good old solo'd vocals! Yaaay... but it actually was good stuff.

Peace,
Adam.


I just KNEW you would comment on the 'surge' at the end, but this is Freddie, with an orchestra - what do you expect??! Lol! However, I'm surpised you didn't remark on another part of it, Adam, knowing your dislike of vocal effects. ;) Thanks for the positive comments, though.

I'll try and do something about the 'Yeah', but the rest is staying put. :)


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Lord Fickle user not visiting Queenzone.com

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Posted: 29 Aug 06, 17:13 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

OK, here's a slightly amended version, with the 'Yeah' back in it's rightful place. :)

http://rapidshare.de/files/31241114/Play_The_Game__Fickle_Orchestral_Mix__-_Amended.mp3


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Posted: 29 Aug 06, 17:32 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Lord Fickle wrote:

Daniel vZ wrote:

Fits very well I think, but the "yeah" with the guitar solo (first one) sounds a bit misplaced imo, but the rest sounds (in my ears) great!

Adam Baboolal wrote:

Exactly my thoughts. It did sound great and very nice overall. But the only other bit that really annoyed my ears was at 3:09 when that huge surge in the vocal at the hi-end is just a bit nasty. Needs cut at a frequency like 2-4kHz and a lowering in volume in relation to the backing track. Otherwise, it works well.

And there I was thinking it was just another ptg track with those good old solo'd vocals! Yaaay... but it actually was good stuff.

Peace,
Adam.


I just KNEW you would comment on the 'surge' at the end, but this is Freddie, with an orchestra - what do you expect??! Lol! However, I'm surpised you didn't remark on another part of it, Adam, knowing your dislike of vocal effects. ;) Thanks for the positive comments, though.

I'll try and do something about the 'Yeah', but the rest is staying put. :)


You haven't listened to the point I was making Mr F. There is NOTHING WRONG with the effect, EXCEPT that their are some harsh frequencies that hurt the overall sound.

Where the heck did you get the, Adam doesn't like vocal effects thing from? Just because I've commented before on your use of delays?

Peace,
Adam.

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Posted: 29 Aug 06, 18:24 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Daniel vZ wrote:

Fits very well I think, but the "yeah" with the guitar solo (first one) sounds a bit misplaced imo, but the rest sounds (in my ears) great!


Adam Baboolal wrote:

Exactly my thoughts. It did sound great and very nice overall. But the only other bit that really annoyed my ears was at 3:09 when that huge surge in the vocal at the hi-end is just a bit nasty. Needs cut at a frequency like 2-4kHz and a lowering in volume in relation to the backing track. Otherwise, it works well.

And there I was thinking it was just another ptg track with those good old solo'd vocals! Yaaay... but it actually was good stuff.

Peace,
Adam.


Lord Fickle wrote:

I just KNEW you would comment on the 'surge' at the end, but this is Freddie, with an orchestra - what do you expect??! Lol! However, I'm surprised you didn't remark on another part of it, Adam, knowing your dislike of vocal effects. ;) Thanks for the positive comments, though.

I'll try and do something about the 'Yeah', but the rest is staying put. :)


Adam Baboolal wrote:

You haven't listened to the point I was making Mr F. There is NOTHING WRONG with the effect, EXCEPT that their are some harsh frequencies that hurt the overall sound.

Where the heck did you get the, Adam doesn't like vocal effects thing from? Just because I've commented before on your use of delays?

Peace,
Adam.


Precisely! You've commented on nearly every mix I have done on my use of delays, and always find them harsh, or in some way detrimental. Don't get me wrong, I'm not having a go, just making an observation, that it seems you are rarely keen on my use of delays, so I wasn't surprised at your comment on this one. My use of delays is one of my 'trademarks', if you like (and I don't mean that to sound immodest), and it's just the way I do things, so unfortunately, we are never going to agree on the matter.

I don't understand frequencies and such technicalities in the same way as you do, so I don't measure my mixes in that way. If it sounds good to my ears, then that's OK, as far as I am concerned. When you say something like "Needs cut at a frequency like 2-4kHz", to be honest, that means nothing to me, but when you say "this part sounds too loud to me", or "that bit sounds like it's in the wrong place, or slightly mis-timed", then I can understand, and try to correct what has been pointed out, if I agree with it. On the other hand, I don't want to spend hours fiddling with a mix, which I think is OK.

I hope that's cool with you, and I'm glad you like the mix overall. I hope to do a couple more of these, the obvious next choice being Love Of My Life... but then again... it might be something different! :)


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Posted: 29 Aug 06, 18:40 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

I find it hard to believe that you don't know what my frequency comment is about when I've read you talking about EQing things before. What's different now that you seem oblivious to what I'm talking about?

If you like the mix the way it is, fine. But we're all giving opinions and mine will be very specific in most cases. I'm only trying to help.

Peace,
Adam.

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Posted: 29 Aug 06, 19:12 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Yes, I do EQ stuff, but I do it by ear, not by numbers! What I mean is, I adjust the various bands of the EQ using the graphic, but I don't really look at the Khz etc, I just go by how it sounds. OK, I have done what you suggested, and dropped the EQ between 2-4Khz. This is over the whole segment where the delay is - it would take me another half an hour to redo just that vocal delay and put it back together again. Truthfully, I can't hear much difference, but I am only listening on PC speakers. If you think this is a vast improvement, I might have another fiddle with it tomorrow evening. I do realise you are trying to help, Adam, and it is appreciated, but you have to understand that most of us are not sound engineers, like yourself, and we are only working with limited time and resources. If I was to perfectly EQ each individual delay, or whatever, it would take 4 days, rather then 4 hours, to do a mix, by which time I would be sick and tired of it, and probably not want to do any more. It would be different if I was making a living out if it - lol!

Anyway, see what you think of this. I dropped 2-4Khz by about 4db. If I could show you the waveform, it's not at all peaked at that point.

http://rapidshare.de/files/31251494/PTG_EQ_Tweak.mp3


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Posted: 30 Aug 06, 10:38 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

That is gorgeous. It makes you wonder what a latter-day Queen with Freddie could have been like -- orchestral tours, something like the WWTLF video. Excellent work, I'm sure the timing wasn't easy, especially since the orchestral version plays with the tempo deliberately (whereas the original studio recording varies organically / unintentionally.)

I haven't listened to any of the "corrections," and I'd have to agree with Fickle that after awhile such things take the fun out of it.

I sometimes think I would love to go back to school to learn proper audio engineering, but I wonder if it would "ruin" normal music listening for me.

I just wish we had a Queen/related Acapella FAQ / sticky. Seems a shame that only the obvious stuff makes it to mixes (PTG / WWRY) as I'm sure there are parts of the Surround from GVH that could work too...

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Posted: 30 Aug 06, 11:15 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

ern2150 wrote:

That is gorgeous. It makes you wonder what a latter-day Queen with Freddie could have been like -- orchestral tours, something like the WWTLF video. Excellent work, I'm sure the timing wasn't easy, especially since the orchestral version plays with the tempo deliberately (whereas the original studio recording varies organically / unintentionally.)


Thanks for your comments. Yes, the timing was quite fiddly. I think it's actually the orchestra version in which the tempo varies in places, so I ended up just doing it line by line.

ern2150 wrote:

I haven't listened to any of the "corrections," and I'd have to agree with Fickle that after awhile such things take the fun out of it.


The only "corrections" were to move the "Yeah", which was incorrectly placed, as I had used my own 'Freddie Vocal' version of PTG, in which I had edited out the gaps. This is now corrected. The other small clip was in response to Adam's comment about the "soaring" vocal towards the end, as is more for him than anyone else.

ern2150 wrote:

I just wish we had a Queen/related Acapella FAQ / sticky. Seems a shame that only the obvious stuff makes it to mixes (PTG / WWRY) as I'm sure there are parts of the Surround from GVH that could work too...


The difficulty is getting isolated parts, so that the other instrumentation doesn't get in the way. I was going to try LOML, with the orchestra, but they very inconsiderately changed key for the second verse (bloody amateurs!), and lowering the pitch sounds shite, but I will have another attempt when I get a bit more time. Until another DVD-A comes out, preferably of one of the 70s albums, there is a limited amount of material available to work from.


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Posted: 30 Aug 06, 11:33 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

I totally understand, ern2150, that it can "take the fun" out of it for some people. I'm always willing to step in and lend a hand when possible. I'm the kind of person who enjoys it and doesn't let it get to me. Though, this was recently tested when I spent 6 months trying to please a band with their mixes... ugh! I'm not invunerable!!

In response to the comment about the engineering fear about it possibly leaving you to enjoy normal music listening less, it doesn't happen to me. I never sit down and start picking things out. I only do that in a studio setting where it's usually needed, hence why it happens here!


Btw Fickle, did you EQ the entire track or just Freddie's vox at that one point where the problem is?

Peace,
Adam.

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Posted: 30 Aug 06, 12:13 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Adam Baboolal wrote:

Btw Fickle, did you EQ the entire track or just Freddie's vox at that one point where the problem is?

Peace,
Adam.


Do you mean "the entire track" as in the entire song, or as in the entire multi-track at that one point? If the former, no, if the latter, yes. As I said, it would have taken me a while to have re-EQ'ed the isolated vocal part, then made a new section and inserted it into the original, if you understand what I'm on about, and at the time, I was tired and not in the mood for any more fiddling about. Obviously, once it's mixed, and saved, I can't 'unmix' it again, as I don't have the facilities, so it means starting again from scratch. I just did it quickly as a rough illustration, but, to my ears, there isn't a problem.


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Adam Baboolal user not visiting Queenzone.com
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Posted: 30 Aug 06, 13:30 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Ah... I didn't realise you were still doing destructive editing. Well, now I realise what you meant by taking hours to redo. Ah well...

Peace,
Adam.

EDIT: Btw, you should try working with Audition's multitrack section for your mixes. Trust me, once you get in the flow of using that, it'll be less like work and more like fun! I've been down the route you've taken and it left a bad taste in my mouth. Lost tracks and mixing mistakes that will remain. Now I keep all tracks in mixed and unmixed form so if there's anything I need done, it takes seconds to do.

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Posted: 30 Aug 06, 14:00 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Nice job there Fickle. EQ woes aside (not like I can actually *tell*, these bog standard Mac speakers don't offer much of an insight) it's a neat synchronisation you've got here.


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Posted: 30 Aug 06, 14:41 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Zebonka12 wrote:

Nice job there Fickle. EQ woes aside (not like I can actually *tell*, these bog standard Mac speakers don't offer much of an insight) it's a neat synchronisation you've got here.


Thanks, Zeb!

Adam Baboolal wrote:

EDIT: Btw, you should try working with Audition's multitrack section for your mixes. Trust me, once you get in the flow of using that, it'll be less like work and more like fun! I've been down the route you've taken and it left a bad taste in my mouth. Lost tracks and mixing mistakes that will remain. Now I keep all tracks in mixed and unmixed form so if there's anything I need done, it takes seconds to do.


Believe me, I've tried, and I don't even know where to start! I just seem to prefer Soundforge's editing facilities, and can never get such clean edits in Audition, for some reason. It's probably just me. I will give it another try when I find something else to do.


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Posted: 30 Aug 06, 18:21 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

As I was about to ask you to be a judge - I really don't want to say too much.

However, why do you need the Brian May bit at all? How would it sound Brianless - ie, just Freddie and orchestra?

Would you be able to post that version too?


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