Forums > Queen - Serious Discussion > MY QUEEN LIVE BOOK (1995) AND ITS ERRORS

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Posted: 22 Oct 06, 19:26 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

DONNA13 raised a fair and valid point in a thread which I just saw, so I thought I'd create a thread (or posting; whatever the hell these things are called), in answer to it.

DONNA wrote... I think any of the fans that are truly knowledgeable (and who also care enough to do something) should write to Greg a "nice" letter, and offer their services for editing of text, identification of pictures, correction of errors, etc.

It wouldn't hurt to have a few experts helping for quality control regardless of who gets his name on a book (or whatever the project is). I would start by sending a list of the errors from Greg's book to Greg. Or has this already been done?

It seems that with today's electronic communication, lots of good could come of this type of collaboration with the fans (and the collectors).

GB REPLIES... This is perfectly logical and sensible. I did exactly this about 2-3 years ago, in fact. I came here to QZ and asked people to send me details of any errors they knew about in my book. I genuinely wanted/want it to be correct too, obviously.

I got some brilliant replies and a number of the errors were very blatant, and I made huge notes of each one (to present to my editor @ Omnibus Press).

I think there were about 25 that were obviously wrong and which needed no checking. I made those changes accordingly. However, I think a further 40-50 points I was told of, were NOT confirmed by anyone else. People insisted that a certain song "Definitely" was not performed at such and such a gig, and other songs "definitely" were - and other errors of that nature... from people's memory, or from "what they'd been told by some bloke who said he was there." But when I said that I needed at least two confirmations of every piece of data (which is reasonable), they got all angry and wrote on QZ that they had told me of erros and I ignored them. NOT TRUE.

ANY piece of information that I received twice, or more, WAS changed. I have all that stuff all re-written here. I was not prepared to take the casual word of just one fan, because...

1. Even the best intended fan can get things wrong in error. They believe whole heartedly that a certain song was missed out, but then it can later transpire, from another source, that maybe it WAS performed after all. Even the most helpful fan can get it wrong, even though well intended. That's why I insisted that no change would occur unless 2 or people conferred.

2. The are malicious gits out there that delibertately tell authors wrong data, just so they can then say, "Hey that piece of data on page 124 was from me, but it's crap, ha ha ha, aren't I clever and cunning!" Sad people who site such things as something to be proud of because it's the nearest they will ever come themselves to having something published.

3. It is good and sensible practise not to take only one person's word for anything. It is the same on TV and radio. A MAJOR event or death is never announced until it has come in from at least 2 sources. They will not go to press or to air on the say-so of ONLY one source. It's not good practise and people who break this rule get caught out very badly very often.

Anyway.... (because the book was about to be re-pressed in small format, lat year) I eventually sent my editor details of 122 changes, AND I credited a further 42 people who passed on those changes. However, my editor then said, "Greg, these changes are extensive and therefor would necessitate a total RE-DESIGN of the book, from beginning to end, and there is no budget for that. This is NOT a new book, it is supposed to be merely and slightly updated version."

I had to accept this. I was irritated too, because I had added new details and corrected the things that many good people had pointed out, but still that book of corrections sits on my desk and is NOT part of what's out there.

I don't like this any more than you guys do, but


GB
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Posted: 22 Oct 06, 21:18 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Greg(or whoever this is) your book is probably the most informative book i have seen on Queen or any other band for that matter.Im sure 75% of the folks here have a copy and have found enjoyment reading it.The only issue i have is when you meet issues head on and seem to be a company stooge.I know writers cringe at the very thought of being a yes man because it takes the art out and makes you nothing more then PR guy.If we ask about "live Killers" for instance how about a straight answer?when you write songs may very well be from this show it seems you are guessing which destroys your credibility.If you would show a bit of courage and say yeah this ablbum is basically a fraud the real fans would then consider you a Journalist iwth some balls.Uncle Brian wont spank you Greg for being honest and if he did is this really what you want to be for the rest of your life?Just this once tell us what you know and why a talented Band like Queen needed to put that mess out on the market.


john pistlli
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Posted: 22 Oct 06, 22:28 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

I didn't think YSM was actually 'hiding' anymore, I thought he came out of the ambiguity closet a short while ago?

Ah well. Good luck convincing people that your book wasn't so bad - the only positive I can see in all this nonsense is... well, take it as a good thing that people care enough about Queen that they'd lambast an author of a Queen-related book, eh?


"Your not funny, your not a good musician, theres a difference between being funny and being an idiot, you obviously being the latter" - Dave R Fuller
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Posted: 23 Oct 06, 03:55 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Greg that is total nonesense.

Firstly as the author of your book you should have simply not sent it to press with so many errors in the first edition, poor work very poor.

Secondly, of course it's your decision as to what goes out in the second, that is bull. You and only you are responsible for the copy, if you are happy with a book being on shelf that contains so many errors that the publisher says it needs a re-design!!! then you care nothing for your work.

I have been involved in publishing over many years and I can tell you if you have that many errors that the (editor??? publisher) tells you it needs a redesign you do it at your own expense if you really care, for gods sake it can't need so much of a re-design that you have to change everything, if it costs more than £1500 I would be amazed, and frankly you should be ashamed if it needs that amount of corrections.

Either way if you are professional you wouldn't want a factually inaccurate book on the market, can you imagine Queen putting out a poor album? do you think Brian would be happy with sub standard work... no why are you?

Edit/addition to original post... I would have to agree with other posters here that the first edition was much harder to create being that the internet didn't exist and the Queen community was not in direct contact with each other, so from that point I of view I have always felt you were working with the best material you had at the time, fair enough, however, the second edition is totally down to you in my view and whilst I understand the need to double check information, that IS what you are meant to do and you should investigate any information given to either prove or disprove it prior to publication. The cost issue is total nonsense, you simply don't send sub par work to press if you care about it at all and to say that there is no budget is just a way of getting out of the fact that you couldn't be bothered. It would not require a total re-design if it did then that would mean 60% of the first book was inaccurate and I find that hard to believe.
As for the put up or shut up argument, well bull again, YOU chose to produce this, you should be professional enough to get it right, those of us here that have careers have to everyday you we lose our jobs, and those still students will soon find out that in the working world little error is tolerated. You might well say as you so often do "What have you done" well plenty, I run a company, I keep people employed, I have generated millions of pounds revenue for the UK over my working life, so I am happy with my lot. I haven't chosen to write a book about Queen , I have left that to the people that know better than me, like you Greg, of which I am confident you know far more than I ever will, all I ask is that you produce work to the same standard as Queen themselves or you let yourself and them and us down. You work on the Freddie box set was excellent, I loved it, it may well have items missing, but the quality and content were well produced, the book is another matter, as I said the first one was understandable, the second is in my eyes down to you alone.


"It is better to sit in silence and have people think you're a fool, then to open your mouth and remove all doubt"
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Posted: 23 Oct 06, 04:54 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

"can you imagine Queen putting out a poor album?"

We'll see!


"Your not funny, your not a good musician, theres a difference between being funny and being an idiot, you obviously being the latter" - Dave R Fuller
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Posted: 23 Oct 06, 06:24 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Do that or shut up.


He Wants It All and He Wants It Now! So it seems.


hj
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Posted: 23 Oct 06, 06:58 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Zebonka12 wrote:

"can you imagine Queen putting out a poor album?"

We'll see!


I have to say I knew that would get comments from a certain crowd, but you get my drift, regardless of whether 'we' like the recorded material, Brian will aways produce work to the highest level he can.


"It is better to sit in silence and have people think you're a fool, then to open your mouth and remove all doubt"
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Posted: 23 Oct 06, 09:33 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Queen Archivist wrote:

I eventually sent my editor details of 122 changes, AND I credited a further 42 people who passed on those changes. However, my editor then said, "Greg, these changes are extensive and therefor would necessitate a total RE-DESIGN of the book, from beginning to end, and there is no budget for that. This is NOT a new book, it is supposed to be merely and slightly updated version."

I had to accept this. I was irritated too, because I had added new details and corrected the things that many good people had pointed out, but still that book of corrections sits on my desk and is NOT part of what's out there.

I don't like this any more than you guys do, but it was not my decision.


Of course it was your decision. You have done a horrible disservice to Queen fans, and to Queen, for having a book full of nonsense about the band published, and later admitting that you were aware of the mistakes from the start. It looks horrible on the band, since you work for them. Did you tell Brian about this friendly conversation with your editor before he (Brian) wrote that forward in your book?

This sounds like nothing but excuses to me. You were spoonfed the corrections from people, and you still couldn't get it right. The first book is excusable. There was no Internet and all. Fine. It was a good book and a good effort. But the second book is inexcusable, and all you're trying to do here is cover up for your mistakes, while actually admitting new ones!

With that in mind, you have just completely destroyed your credibility, Greg. What you have just done is admit that you were fully aware of all the errors in your book, and that you okayed the book to be published and sold regardless. If you couldn't get the money from Queen Productions or elsewhere, then it's completely your fault for having having the book released instead of waiting for the correct time for it to come out. This whole situation is an embarrassment to all things Queen. I hope your reputation continues to crumble. You have nobody to blame but yourself.



"The more generous you are with your music, the more it comes back to you." -- Dan Lampinski



http://www.queenlive.ca
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Posted: 23 Oct 06, 12:47 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Queen Archivist wrote:


I would be very happy for anyone to take on the task of checking my corrections...

Even though many fans moan and moan about my book being "full of thousands of errors" they would still moan at efforts to rectify that situation... like they did last time.

Do that or shut up.

No one here has offerred a realistic solution - only criticism, as usual.



Maybe it's your approach.

I'm glad you're back, now I can get back to my job at Burger King. Pete, the shift supervisor, misses your work at the drive-thru window. He says your job will always be available...

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Posted: 23 Oct 06, 13:16 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Togg wrote:

Zebonka12 wrote:

"can you imagine Queen putting out a poor album?"

We'll see!


I have to say I knew that would get comments from a certain crowd, but you get my drift, regardless of whether 'we' like the recorded material, Brian will aways produce work to the highest level he can.


Oh of course, *I* get you :P I was actually pre-empting the RIP 1991 Nazis that usually come in right about..... now. Heh.


"Your not funny, your not a good musician, theres a difference between being funny and being an idiot, you obviously being the latter" - Dave R Fuller
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Posted: 23 Oct 06, 14:47 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

FFS, greg can't know everything on his own. cut the guy some slack

even brian doesn't know entirely what recordings exist / don't exist

in stead of talking from your ass, you'd better give some positive advice to greg when he asks for it

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Posted: 23 Oct 06, 14:58 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

leave the man alone and do not insult him every fucking time ! that he wasted the time writing this book is great, fuck if you can do better then fucking do it or shut the hell up.

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Posted: 23 Oct 06, 15:26 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Going Back wrote:

leave the man alone and do not insult him every fucking time ! that he wasted the time writing this book is great, fuck if you can do better then fucking do it or shut the hell up.


word man

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Posted: 23 Oct 06, 15:27 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Greg, i agree that you have ruined any credibility that you had or will have by your statements. This is sad Greg, why would someone want to release a book knowing that there are that many errors without trying to rectify the situation? That would be like GM putting out a 2007 Chevrolet Brooks and knowing that the airbags do not work, see the simularity? Honestly i am not here to insult you, just to merely tell you the way i see it. I still have and like your book, but i wouldn't be the only one to swear by Queenconcerts.com now, only because of the day and age it is now, and the fact that there are alot less errors on the info, and this could be because of the fact that this person knows what is out there because they are a collector, and the fact that they will accept edits. But anyways, why not make a revised edition of this book, with edits and updated Q+PR and other concerts in it? Oh btw, hope Bri's lecture wasn't too harsh on you? lol


Hello you rock and rollers!
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Posted: 23 Oct 06, 15:45 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Going Back wrote:

leave the man alone and do not insult him every fucking time ! that he wasted the time writing this book is great, fuck if you can do better then fucking do it or shut the hell up.


I am sick of this stance. Just because someone hasn't gotten a book published, does that mean that they are restricted from ever criticizing a published work? Just because someone isn't in a band, does that mean that they are restricted from ever criticizing an album release?

My own book is being published in November, and while I'm terrified that I'll receive harsh criticism, I hope that the fans who know more than I do - and I know that's a lot! - will be able to assist me in making corrections and adding information for further publications. If there's anything that I'm missing, you can be damn sure that I'll make sure to add it to any updated version instead of just ignoring it.

Greg and I have traded words previously - some were polite, some were not so polite - and while I'm disappointed that the second edition of his book was so error-ridden, I must give him considerable credit for his first edition. It was my bible back when I first got it; finally, a Queen book that I could really enjoy. I read it cover to cover, and if you were able to see my copy, you'd see that I wasn't lying. So I was excited and hopeful that the second edition would be even better, but I was disappointed. There was so much potential, but, apart from the indepth 1979 section and a few other sections, it was all the same with the same errors.

I find the low budget excuse to be a bit dodgy; I can't imagine why a publisher would say that a major rehaul wouldn't be in order, especially if Greg knew about the errors. However, I'm willing to give Greg the benefit of the doubt, because not all publishing companies give a whole lot of freedom with second editions. The company that I submitted my book to is very cool and open; I'm certain that they will have no problem if I were to add on an extra 50,000 words for the second edition in a few years' time.

Then again, Omnibus Press (which published Greg's book) also published The Who's live book, and updated it recently with a whole new section on concerts from 1997 to 2002. I haven't purchased it yet, but I'd even be willing to be that most of the glaring mistakes were corrected, too.

So, what am I trying to say? Enough with the "put up or shut up" arguments. I would hope that when someone finds an error in my book, they will let me know so that I can quickly correct it. This is my solemn promise that I won't get bitchy, uppity, or defensive when someone spots an error and lets me know about it. I certainly won't counter with, "Well, this person doesn't have a listing on Amazon.com, so their opinion is worthless."

And, if we're allowing published authors to critique other published authors, then let me just say that the second edition of Queen Live could have been so much better, and I'll only hope that, for the third edition, Greg actually listens to the fans and will let his publishers know that a more accurate publication is worth the money instead of saving some cash and continuing to put out incorrect information.

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Posted: 23 Oct 06, 16:16 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

..but I can quite believe that Greg had no "right" to insist on the rewrite, and that it was entirely down to the publishers that the investment wasn't made.

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Posted: 23 Oct 06, 16:50 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Penetration_Guru wrote:

..but I can quite believe that Greg had no "right" to insist on the rewrite, and that it was entirely down to the publishers that the investment wasn't made.


That's a good point, but I didn't mean to imply that Greg insisted on republishing the book - generally, the author has no say in when a book is going to be revisited and is at the mercy of the publisher.

I guess I just find it strange that a publisher would be willing to allow the same errors to be published, despite Greg alerting them to the corrections. I don't understand where the extra cost would come from; considering the book was a new template anyway, with a smaller font, yet still using most of the same pictures from the previous edition, the only notable changes were to be made in the text, which were no doubt written in Microsoft Word - the new text would just need to be reflowed into a new template, and if it ran considerably over the target page count, then some of the lengthier sections would merely need to be edited (or the page count would need to be increased).

I work at a medical publishing company myself, and if any errors were found (or made) in the first edition of a book, or if new information is given, then the second edition is meticulous in pointing out the corrections / additions. I don't expect every publishing company to be the same, but it certainly can't be that bad at Omnibus Press that the money couldn't have been ponied up for a corrected book?

blah blah blah

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Posted: 23 Oct 06, 16:54 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Togg wrote:

Greg that is total nonesense.

Firstly as the author of your book you should have simply not sent it to press with so many errors in the first edition, poor work very poor.

Secondly, of course it's your decision as to what goes out in the second, that is bull. You and only you are responsible for the copy, if you are happy with a book being on shelf that contains so many errors that the publisher says it needs a re-design!!! then you care nothing for your work.

I have been involved in publishing over many years and I can tell you if you have that many errors that the (editor??? publisher) tells you it needs a redesign you do it at your own expence if you really care, for gods sake it can't need so much of a re-design that you have to change everything, if it costs more than £1500 I would be amazed, and frankly you should be ashamed if it needs that amount of corrections.

Either way if you are professional you wouldn't want a factually inaccurqate book on the market, can you imagine Queen putting out a poor album? do you think Brian would be happy with sub standard work... no why are you?



Togg, you are completely right!!!!

I worked in publishing and printing as well... and your point of view is solid (regarding the "budget comment" for instance)

And if GB seems to ignore this, he is either a bad negotiator or just blatantly ignorant ... but that is just my HUMBLE opinion !!!

My comment towards GB remains as always " hahahahahaha" (greg, you know what i mean!)







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Posted: 23 Oct 06, 16:58 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Penetration_Guru wrote:

..but I can quite believe that Greg had no "right" to insist on the rewrite, and that it was entirely down to the publishers that the investment wasn't made.


I'm sure that everybody has moments of panic after publishing hard copies of anything. A web page would be a good way (and fast way) for Greg to list corrections and updates. Or would this sort of thing also be under the control of the publisher?

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Posted: 23 Oct 06, 17:10 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

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