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The Real Wizard user not visiting Queenzone.com
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Posted: 23 Nov 06, 02:32 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

...written by the pope:

http://www.cbc.ca/arts/books/story/2006/11/22/pope-book.html

"The biography seeks to refute modern interpretations of Jesus as nothing more than a revolutionary and moral teacher. These interpretations are confusing to the faithful," Benedict said.

Allow me to rewrite that with more straight-forward and unbiased language:

With the help of modern science, discoveries of alternative scriptures, scholarship, and the evolution of philosophy, new interpretations of who Jesus was have come to light over the last century. The pope's "biography" of Jesus seeks to combat these modern interpretations, because the catholic church feels threatened by the fact that the faithful are being given more options of how to live meaningful lives. Rather than focus on the well-being of people of today's world, the church will continue to insist that their outdated dogma, doctrines, and (declining) power should be their first priority for as long as they are able.

Discuss.



"The more generous you are with your music, the more it comes back to you." -- Dan Lampinski



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Posted: 23 Nov 06, 22:49 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Okay, I've had it with this forum... there is clearly no room for intelligent discussion here.



"The more generous you are with your music, the more it comes back to you." -- Dan Lampinski



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Posted: 23 Nov 06, 23:01 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Anyone who agrees with you simply won't buy the book. Anyone who disagrees with you simply would be offended. There's not much room for discussion...


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Posted: 23 Nov 06, 23:35 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

I'm sorry Sir GH, I'm not a very spiritual or religious person. I'm just not interested in discussing this book. But I would like to read other's views on it. I love a good (intelligent) debate.

:)


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Posted: 23 Nov 06, 23:59 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Oh, I clicked on this because I thought you were writing something, Sir GH.

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Posted: 24 Nov 06, 08:51 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Sir GH<br><h6>ah yeah</h6> wrote:

Okay, I've had it with this forum... there is clearly no room for intelligent discussion here.


Just because it is a topic that I do not care to debate, does not mean that I am not capable intelligent discussion, and I am certain that is true of alot of others members here as well. I seldom ever discuss my personal views on religion or politics on this board, as it usually results in namecalling and mud slinging and general rudeness. Also, yesterday was Thanksgiving in the USA, a holiday that most people spend with their families, not on the internet. I didn't even see this topic until I logged on this morning. Incidentally, I don't come to this board to 'debate' anything. For me this site is a light-hearted escape for a few minutes of the day when I am taking a break from whatever I am doing here. I might comment on something I see if I feel very passionately about it, but I usually leave the heavy discussion for others. Just not my thing. But if you want me to comment on this topic, the thing that jumped out at me is the pope referred to it as "HIS interpretation of Jesus in the New Testament"(Not anyone else's.). He also said that the book should NOT be considered part of official, binding Roman Catholic teaching. He also stated that he was writing this book based "solely a reflection of my personal research," and that it should not be considered infallible. And he said that everyone was free to contradict him. So if a man wants to write a book on the way he himself sums up a particular person or situation in history, he is well within his rights to do so and I see nothing wrong with it. Its up to an individual whether he/she wants to read it or for that matter, believe it.




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Posted: 24 Nov 06, 11:18 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Sir GH<br><h6>ah yeah</h6> wrote:


Discuss.


Janet is right. Many of us were with family yesterday, not on the boards, so... be nice.

I do agree with your overall opinions on religion, SirGH. I don't begrudge anyone their beliefs, but I do object when their beliefs infringe on mine. And I object when people pray rather than take a proactive approach to problems in their lives. If they want to pray because it brings them comfort, then fine, great. Just do it AND be active in your life. Use the brain you believe god gave you and do something besides pray for divine intervention.

But that's off topic... more to the point...

It makes sense that the RC church would try to enforce their idea of who Jesus was. That’s their job. But, IMO, if people see Jesus as a wise man with a peaceful message, that’s a good thing. Of course, if those same people don’t remain or become catholic, then it doesn’t benefit the church, does it?

Catholics are catholics because they already believe Jesus was the son of god... so who could the pope be writing this book for? Non-believers? Does he think it will alter their view? Is it meant to open a dialogue between faiths? Or is it meant to reinforce faith in his followers? That's how I see it, as a lure for the fish in the tank not for the fish in the sea.

I’d much rather read your rebuttal book than the pope's book. :-)



"The others don't like my interviews. And frankly, I don't care much for theirs." ~ Freddie Mercury



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Posted: 24 Nov 06, 11:23 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Janet wrote:

But if you want me to comment on this topic, the thing that jumped out at me is the pope referred to it as "HIS interpretation of Jesus in the New Testament"(Not anyone else's.). He also said that the book should NOT be considered part of official, binding Roman Catholic teaching.


Janet,

You're right, he did say this, but truthfully, if the pope writes a book while 'in office', how can he say it should not be considered part of official, binding teachings? I don't believe followers will see it as just his opinion. I believe they will see it as his WORD.



"The others don't like my interviews. And frankly, I don't care much for theirs." ~ Freddie Mercury



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Posted: 24 Nov 06, 13:06 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

magicalfreddiemercury wrote:

Janet wrote:

But if you want me to comment on this topic, the thing that jumped out at me is the pope referred to it as "HIS interpretation of Jesus in the New Testament"(Not anyone else's.). He also said that the book should NOT be considered part of official, binding Roman Catholic teaching.


Janet,

You're right, he did say this, but truthfully, if the pope writes a book while 'in office', how can he say it should not be considered part of official, binding teachings? I don't believe followers will see it as just his opinion. I believe they will see it as his WORD.


I am certain that you are 100% correct. I am sure that most all devoted Catholics will look at it as his word on the subject because I am sure its basically what they all believe about Christ already. Its basically what Music Man said above. People who agree with the Pope's beliefs will buy the book and it will reaffirm their faith. People who don't simply won't bother. I guess I just don't see it as that big of a controversy.


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Posted: 24 Nov 06, 13:07 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Janet wrote:

Just because it is a topic that I do not care to debate, does not mean that I am not capable intelligent discussion, and I am certain that is true of alot of others members here as well.


Yes, I fully realize this. My apologies for my original wording, which seems pretty harsh looking back on it. But still, we can't deny that intelligent people at this forum are pretty scarce. Also, let's not forget that openly discussing religious topics is still pretty taboo in our society. I guess I'm trying to do my small part in slowly changing that.

Its up to an individual whether he/she wants to read it or for that matter, believe it.


In theory, yes, but if a certain individual is one who has bought into the fear tactics of the catholic church, then they will not dare seek an alternative opinion (in fear of purgatory), and will automatically believe every word that the pope has to say. People will believe anything as long as they're afraid. As for this book in particular, the pope is certainly trying to keep as many people in the church as he can, because he knows that modern ways are slowly taking over.

magicalfreddiemercury wrote:

That's how I see it, as a lure for the fish in the tank not for the fish in the sea.


Agreed. Let's also include those who are in the sea, considering latching onto the bait, but are still interested in what the rest of the sea has to offer. He may grab a few of them. As for the pope saying it's just "his opinion", he's simply using the right words so he won't be criticized even before the book comes out. My belief is that the book will offer nothing new. It will just reinforce the old ideas that have been thrown around for centuries, so there won't be much need to criticize the book after it comes out, either.

I’d much rather read your rebuttal book than the pope's book. :-)


Haha! I'm flattered. I've honestly thought about it, but I don't think I could offer much more than what's already out there. There are plenty of books written by scholars and philosophers, although the vast majority of them are not mainstream books. Book stores miss 95% of the books that involve modern religious scholarship, and mostly carry books that reinforce the traditional views. More people would definitely be aware of alternatives if they were more easily available. If you want a cross-section of what I believe, then pick up books by Paul Alan Laughlin, the Dalai Lama, Cheri Huber, and Sam Harris.



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Posted: 24 Nov 06, 13:43 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Hmm...apparantly some people got alittle aggravated with lack of discussion on the boards about this. I believe that Barb started a thread a while back about the stupid people swamping the boards and the regulars and good posters leaving. Have to say I didn't respond to this both because it was Thanksgiving yesterday and because my parent's internet is dial up...ergo takes a while to load anything, and I didn't want to try and overload it.
Good topic, but a few points:
Yes, this book is still written by the pope. Even if he says, "Oh, that's just my opinion and shouldn't be held as infallible or the official word of the church" doesn't mean crap. It's like the president saying "I just wrote a book on 9-11, and it's just my personal opinion, not the opinion of the office". This is total bull; no one with half a brain actually buys this excuse. This is merely testing the waters...if the RC's don't like it, the pope can say "Well, it was just my opinion" and if they do, he can say "I wrote this while I was Pope, ergo this is dogma now". It's a cheap and cowardly way to hide, nothing more, nothing less. He may have written this (he thinks) as a man (Joseph Rafzinger, right?), but he knows damn well that he's the pope, and should know that his words carry more weight that way. It's just like any other famous person...you come into an office like that, (President, Prime Minister, Monarch, Pope) and you cease to exist as a person, for the rest of your life. You are either that title or the former that title, and your words still hold that weight; if these people figured that out it would be nice.
Second, just a minor detail to Sir GH....the vatican denied the existance of purgatory (I believe it was the 2nd Vatican Council, but it may have been earlier than that, I'm not sure). They don't believe it exists anymore...it's just heaven and hell now...no midway.


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Posted: 24 Nov 06, 14:16 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

I would have to assume (not having read this book either) that the Pope is writing something that is personal to him. And this is because he started writing the book before he was Pope. So, to me this means that most likely this was an intellectual project for him and it is still something he is working on.

I am not Catholic.

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Posted: 24 Nov 06, 19:30 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

CMU HistoryGirl wrote:

Yes, this book is still written by the pope. Even if he says, "Oh, that's just my opinion and shouldn't be held as infallible or the official word of the church" doesn't mean crap. It's like the president saying "I just wrote a book on 9-11, and it's just my personal opinion, not the opinion of the office". This is total bull; no one with half a brain actually buys this excuse. This is merely testing the waters...if the RC's don't like it, the pope can say "Well, it was just my opinion" and if they do, he can say "I wrote this while I was Pope, ergo this is dogma now". It's a cheap and cowardly way to hide, nothing more, nothing less. He may have written this (he thinks) as a man (Joseph Rafzinger, right?), but he knows damn well that he's the pope, and should know that his words carry more weight that way. It's just like any other famous person...you come into an office like that, (President, Prime Minister, Monarch, Pope) and you cease to exist as a person, for the rest of your life. You are either that title or the former that title, and your words still hold that weight; if these people figured that out it would be nice.


Excellent points made!

Second, just a minor detail to Sir GH....the vatican denied the existance of purgatory (I believe it was the 2nd Vatican Council, but it may have been earlier than that, I'm not sure). They don't believe it exists anymore...it's just heaven and hell now...no midway.


Interesting... I didn't know that. Thanks for the info.

<font color=red>The Audacity of Charles wrote:

I was totally ignored and I just don't care to do it again on a topic that will lead me to re-make the same points...


Maybe some of us didn't see it in that topic. You're welcome to post anything anywhere - preferably if it's directly related to the subject! So I'd be happy to hear what you have to say about it.



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Posted: 24 Nov 06, 22:57 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

@ Sir GH...
No problem. That's the best thing about threads like this, is learning things you don't know or looking at things from new perspectives; and I know you love that as much as I do

@ Audacity of Charles
I think I started the thread you mentioned. If I didn't respond to your reply, it's probably because I agreed with it and saw no need to correct it. I doubt it's because anyone was ignoring you...we just have a tendency to correct the wrong things we see, rather than praise the right things we see. We should all probably work on that...but please let us know what you think about this!


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Posted: 25 Nov 06, 08:46 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

I will make two points:

1. It would make more sense to read a book prior to discussing it.

2. I don't think that one can really know another person's motivation for writing a book without knowing that person very well.

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Posted: 25 Nov 06, 14:24 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Donna13 wrote:

I will make two points:

1. It would make more sense to read a book prior to discussing it.

2. I don't think that one can really know another person's motivation for writing a book without knowing that person very well.


This is true. A lot of people are giving him a lot of flack simply because of the fact that he is the Pope - a figure that is generally looked down upon outside of the Roman Catholic circle.


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Posted: 25 Nov 06, 15:24 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Sir GH<br><h6>ah yeah</h6> wrote:

...written by the pope:

http://www.cbc.ca/arts/books/story/2006/11/22/pope-book.html

"The biography seeks to refute modern interpretations of Jesus as nothing more than a revolutionary and moral teacher. These interpretations are confusing to the faithful," Benedict said.

Allow me to rewrite that with more straight-forward and unbiased language:

With the help of modern science, discoveries of alternative scriptures, scholarship, and the evolution of philosophy, new interpretations of who Jesus was have come to light over the last century. The pope's "biography" of Jesus seeks to combat these modern interpretations, because the catholic church feels threatened by the fact that the faithful are being given more options of how to live meaningful lives. Rather than focus on the well-being of people of today's world, the church will continue to insist that their outdated dogma, doctrines, and (declining) power should be their first priority for as long as they are able.

Discuss.


I have nothing to add. That's why there's no discussion: you've said it all.


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