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Sergei. user not visiting Queenzone.com
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Posted: 05 Apr 07, 16:53 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

This is sort of a "branch" off of the evolution thread... gave me an idea anyway. I was thinking about religion and god and the bible. I'm not sure whether I believe in god or not :/ I mean, there's the religious and logical theory for everything... the creation of people and the universe, mainly... but I find myself believing The Big Bang Theory and Evolution more than "God created everything in 7 days." When you think about it, almost everything that has to do with science contradicts religion. I guess that's why the Catholic church hated scientists a long time ago. But anyways, I always hear all sorts of stuff about how "God makes miracles happen" and "Pray to god and angels will help you." But the thing is, we prayed all the time when my great aunt had cancer and she died. And if god can make such miracles happen, why are millions of kids in Africa dying of disease and starvation? And little kids and babies being born with birth defects and getting cancer?? Sorry if it sounds like I'm ranting. They're just some "burning questions" I've always had. And you can't ask them at church because all the people will say you're crazy and going to go to hell for questioning god's existance. I just started this to see what anyone else thinks about religion. That's it...


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Posted: 05 Apr 07, 16:58 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

I think this thread might open a huge can of worms, lol.

Well, a little of my input...

I don't think science and religion really contradict so much.

Someone once explained that they can go together, "Science tells you how, Religion tells you why."


And the whole seven days thing....I just don't take it literally. Who's to say that a day meant what we know to be a 24 hour cycle? I think a lot of stuff in the Bible can be up for loose interpretation.


And with death and suffering and prayers not being answered...I dunno. It's hard, but it happens. I think whatever happens, probably happens for a reason, even if we cannot understand it.



"The walls we build around us to keep sadness out also keep out the joy."

(Jim Rohn)
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Posted: 05 Apr 07, 17:06 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

<font color=lime>KillerQueen840 wrote:

And the whole seven days thing....I just don't take it literally. Who's to say that a day meant what we know to be a 24 hour cycle?

Ichhh, that's really smart! I think I'm going to borrow this argument for later.. :00


-Things Have Changed For Me-
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Posted: 05 Apr 07, 17:19 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

<font color=teal>Cookies!<h6>A scientist wrote:

I was thinking about religion and god and the bible. I'm not sure whether I believe in god or not :/


Buy Richard Dawkins' book, "The God Delusion". Read it carefully cover to cover. When you finish, I doubt you'll question whether you believe in god.



"The others don't like my interviews. And frankly, I don't care much for theirs." ~ Freddie Mercury



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Posted: 05 Apr 07, 17:49 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

I figured a belief in God is totally subjective...like, if one person picks one way or another to believe, it'd be difficult to convince him otherwise.

I mean, I suppose I can see how it's totally plausible for one to believe that a god created all the natural principles we humans understand.


Creativity can always cover for a lack of knowledge.
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Posted: 05 Apr 07, 18:17 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

<b><font color=666600>Music Man wrote:

I mean, I suppose I can see how it's totally plausible for one to believe that a god created all the natural principles we humans understand.


But what's the point of wondering where such things originated if we'll never know, especially if there is no tangible way to put any of these philosophical theories to the test? Philosophy is important for understanding your current existence, and can propel you into the future. The point is that we can think about these things... not "when did the thinking begin?". It's irrelevant, and an absolute waste of time, in my opinion.

<font color=teal>Cookies!<h6>A scientist wrote:

They're just some "burning questions" I've always had. And you can't ask them at church because all the people will say you're crazy and going to go to hell for questioning god's existance.


Those are called "fear tactics". They can only affect you if you let them. And it seems you've conquered that. Good job. Spread the good word.



"The more generous you are with your music, the more it comes back to you." -- Dan Lampinski



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Posted: 05 Apr 07, 18:30 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Evolution is not a matter of beliving. It is proven. You also don't have to believe the Earth isn't the middle of the universe or that it is flat.




"On the first day Pim & Niek created a heavenly occupation. Pim & Niek blessed it and named it 'Loosch'."



(Genesis 1:1)
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Posted: 05 Apr 07, 19:02 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

I hate to contradict Chicken on this one, but evolution is NOT proven. Neither, for that matter, is gravity.
Nothing in science is proven...nothing is an absolute truth. Everything in theory. And the reason it is that way is to make sure that false beliefs don't develope. The harder you make it to prove something always true, the harder you test it, the more you understand it. That's why nothing in science is proven.
Now, granted that gravity and evolution are still technically theories, but they are mainstream, accepted by anyone with a brian theories. They will never be truths, because we can't ever know what is going to come along in the future. There may come a time when we can prove the theory of gravity wrong....we never know. But we accept gravity and evolution as truths because they have been proven in 99.9999 percent of cases, and don't look likely to be disproven in the future. But that doesn't mean they can't be...semantics matter.
That being said...religion is a personal decision...one that I decided on a long time ago. I think that religion is a tool of social control, and can be used as a tool of political control as well. Don't get me wrong...religion has been responsible for great works of art and beautiful music and such...but it's also been responsible for great evil in the world, the very evil it purports to be against. Personally, I think that if there is a God, and I'm not sure on that one at all, I think the whole "Why are their different religions in the world" thing may be a test to see if humans can transcend differences and get along together peacefully...and we've seen how wonderfully well that has worked out.
For my own mind...I don't see the point in wasting my time worrying about what's going to happen to me when I die. I really don't care. You are dead...that's the certainty. What happens after that, I honestly don't care all that much. I think most of the afterlife theories are a result of the human mind's need to comfort ourselves with "They are in a better place" or need for justice if justice can't be served in this world "They will be punished in hell". It's a coping device, nothing more.
The way that I look at it, we only have a short time on the planet; a short time to be alive. I personally don't want to spend it worrying about an afterlife that may or may not exist...I'd rather live life that I know to be real while I can. Does this make me evil? According to the religious zelots, yeah. But, I honestly couldn't give a crap what they think. Let them have their religion, and they will die without ever having truly lived. I personally have bigger things to do and better things to worry about than "Divine judgement in the afterlife."
You go your way...and I'll go mine. We can co-exist, as long as both of us respect the fact that we disagree. Have your religion, that's fine with me...but don't shove it down my throat. I'll have my beliefs, and I won't shove them down yours.


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Posted: 05 Apr 07, 21:03 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Sir GH<br><h6>ah yeah</h6> wrote:

<b><font color=666600>Music Man wrote:

I mean, I suppose I can see how it's totally plausible for one to believe that a god created all the natural principles we humans understand.


But what's the point of wondering where such things originated if we'll never know, especially if there is no tangible way to put any of these philosophical theories to the test? Philosophy is important for understanding your current existence, and can propel you into the future. The point is that we can think about these things... not "when did the thinking begin?". It's irrelevant, and an absolute waste of time, in my opinion.


Oh, I left out a sentence I had previously had in my post that went something along the lines of, "I don't really bother thinking about such things, because it's all quite irrelevant. You'll never know what you'll never know, so there's no use trying to know it."

Like I always say, I'd be an agnostic, but that implies I actually put some thought into it.


Creativity can always cover for a lack of knowledge.
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Posted: 05 Apr 07, 21:44 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Evolution HAS been proven.



I seriously can't believe intelligent people believe in a god. Especially people who believe in god and evolution and the big bang.

How on earth can you believe in a god that just pushed the first dominoblock and watched what happened. Cause that is what you believe in.


"On the first day Pim & Niek created a heavenly occupation. Pim & Niek blessed it and named it 'Loosch'."



(Genesis 1:1)
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Posted: 05 Apr 07, 21:59 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Evolution has been proven...in as far as we know how to prove it now.
My point was that science never says anything is a law unless we can say for certain that nothing in the future could over-turn what has been "proven", ergo nothing is truly "proven" because we don't know what the future holds.
I do believe in evolution, but it's a matter of semantics here.


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Posted: 05 Apr 07, 22:05 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

CMU HistoryGirl wrote:

Evolution has been proven...in as far as we know how to prove it now.

And that's the key difference between science and religion, isn't it? Science is open to future discoveries while religion literally fights to stay as it was for ages without allowance for growth or new intelligence.



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Posted: 05 Apr 07, 22:48 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

magicalfreddiemercury wrote:


religion literally fights to stay as it was for ages without allowance for growth or new intelligence.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberation_theology

Religion is capable of growth and exciting new directions, as shown in the link above, but it's often those who stress strict dogma that shout the loudest.


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Posted: 05 Apr 07, 23:06 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Zeni wrote:

magicalfreddiemercury wrote:


religion literally fights to stay as it was for ages without allowance for growth or new intelligence.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberation_theology

Religion is capable of growth and exciting new directions, as shown in the link above, but it's often those who stress strict dogma that shout the loudest.


While I understand your point, I see this as a way of maintaining the base religion while adding contemporary views.

From http://www.landreform.org/
"The movement that came to be called "Liberation Theology" began with the awareness that it is blasphemous to care for people's souls while ignoring their needs for food, shelter and human dignity. As Jesus participated in the suffering of the poor, and proclaimed to them the good news of justice and freedom, so must today's church engage in the struggle for justice in this world."

Yes, that and more means it's changed, but not in the way that a scientific 'conclusion' will change with new evidence.


"The others don't like my interviews. And frankly, I don't care much for theirs." ~ Freddie Mercury



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Posted: 05 Apr 07, 23:08 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Sorry, double post.


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Posted: 05 Apr 07, 23:08 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

People say, "I believe in God," or "I believe in evolution," but I personally don't like to "believe" in anything. By definition, believing is unfounded.

I will only go so far as to "assume something is true, for a specific purpose." To me, that's personally what I see as the reasonable thing to do. Never have full confidence in anything, no matter what.

Edit: Sometimes even science is founded on uncertain beliefs. Take the global warming issue for example. Lots of people (scientists) make opinions on that without objective evidence. It's like a new religion.


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Posted: 06 Apr 07, 00:55 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

I was very open minded about God until yesterday when a religious girl I know pissed me right off.

My attitude now is fuck 'im. Fuck Him right in the ear.


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Posted: 06 Apr 07, 00:59 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

magicalfreddiemercury wrote:


Yes, that and more means it's changed, but not in the way that a scientific 'conclusion' will change with new evidence.


Though I get your point, I just wanted to point out that that is a very "western" way of thinking. Western thinking, which most of us have been exposed to, assumes a very temporal and linear type of thinking bent on finding scientific conclusions and historical facts.

If you want religion to provide scientific-type conclusions and adapt, then it probably won't. But if you look to religion to provide existential conclusions, or truth you can "trust," then I think it can change.


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Posted: 06 Apr 07, 08:47 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Zeni wrote:



If you want religion to provide scientific-type conclusions and adapt, then it probably won't. But if you look to religion to provide existential conclusions, or truth you can "trust," then I think it can change.


Thing is, personally, I don't WANT religion. But that's me. To your point, there are those who want and appreciate having a 'truth' they can trust, and modifying that truth to fit the times can only be a good thing, IMO. But it's not happening to the core religion. That remains unchanged. The Catholic church won't soon be pro-choice or gay union. However, sects of Christians might (continue to) branch off to form their own church based on their RC beliefs. This "new" church will be progressive but the mother church will remain steadfast and therefore defy attempts at change.

On a separate point, yesterday I received my copy of The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins. Of course it's not for everyone, but for me it was like a group therapy session. At least the part I skipped to was. Chapter 9: Children, Abuse and the Escape from Religion. In that section, Dawkins reprinted letters he'd received from 'survivors' whose childhood experiences with god and the church were quite terrifying. It was like reading about my own youth.

My hatred for religion stems from the nights I spent trying to stay awake long enough to finish praying. I KNEW if I fell asleep before I finished my stack of prayers, then I was sinning. And, of course, all 7 years olds knew what would happen to them and their family if they sinned, didn't they? They'd suffer the tortures of hell. And did you know, there is no way to escape sin? That's what this terrified little child had been told from the beginning. So, there I was, night after night, an impressionable kid (as most kids are) desperately trying to 'convince' god of my sincerity, my remorse, so that my future punishment might not be even worse than what had already been planned for me... and for my children. And yes, the church taught me that as well... the sins of the father, and all that. I couldn't ask my parents to clarify anything because to question it was also to be sinning.

In reading a few pages of Chapter 9 in The God Delusion, I found I was not alone in my childhood suffering - or abuse as Dawkins (rightfully) calls it. It's sad to think so many children suffered that and much more, but it's also comforting to know I wasn't alone... and that others have recovered from the abuse. Unfortunately, others are still enduring it.

There is no room in my life for the pain of religion. And I've made sure my child will never experience it. As far as I'm concerned, the 'sins of the father' should never be repeated.


"The others don't like my interviews. And frankly, I don't care much for theirs." ~ Freddie Mercury



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Posted: 06 Apr 07, 09:04 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

<b><font color=666600>Music Man wrote:

Edit: Sometimes even science is founded on uncertain beliefs. Take the global warming issue for example. Lots of people (scientists) make opinions on that without objective evidence. It's like a new religion.


Not exactly. This belief is based on visual and, yes, scientific, evidence - albeit raw, rather than on stories written decades after the fact. Scientists are not saying humans are the sole cause of global warming, but that we are contributing to it. They are concerend about what the effects natural and unnatural warming will have on the planet - on us. If cutting down emmissions can cut down on the rate the planet warms, surely that's a good thing, no? Maybe it will buy us some time to figure out how to adapt to or slow the natural process.

I thought this was an interesting article, you might find it interesting as well...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070406/ap_on_sc/climate_report

Sorry for the hijack, Cookies. :)


"The others don't like my interviews. And frankly, I don't care much for theirs." ~ Freddie Mercury