Forums > Personal > The abduction of 3 year old Madeleine McCann..

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Freya is quietly judging you. user not visiting Queenzone.com
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Posted: 16 May 07, 15:31 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Just wondering how many of you had heard about this? I'm sure everybody in the UK knows about it (How could you not.) But I'm not sure if it's 'world news'.

Just in case people don't know -

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_pictures/6629399.stm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disappearance_of_Madeleine_McCann

I think it's just disgusting that somebody could kidnap a child, especially one so young. She's only 4 years old (Well, she was 3 when she was abducted, on May 3rd) I can't imagine what would possess someone to take such a young child away from its parents.

Although it's nearly been 2 weeks, I still hold out some hope for her to be found, mainly because I'm naïve enough to think that nobody could murder somebody so young.

Anyway, what are your opinions? Do you think her parents should have left her and their 2 other children alone in the holiday apartment?

Myself, I can see why they did leave them alone. When I was in the New Forest at Easter, we left my 8 month old cousin, who coincidentally is called Madeleine, in the hotel room while we ate in the evening. However, we were on the same floor in the same building in the hotel and we had the baby monitor with us and every 20 minutes either my aunt or uncle went to check on her. However, I think we might think twice about doing that next year.

Anyway, whether or not they should have left them alone, I think we can all agree that it would be amazing if little Madeleine could be returned safely to her parents. Whether that will happen or not, is a different matter.

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Posted: 16 May 07, 15:34 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

I hope she is returned to her parents, of course but I don't think I would have left a child unattended.

But that is beside the point now. Hopefully she will be found soon.

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Posted: 16 May 07, 15:37 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

It's amazing what some people will do. There was a woman arrested here last week for leaving her 3 kids (ages 4 & under) home... WHILE SHE WENT OUT ON A DATE!!!

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Posted: 16 May 07, 15:42 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Micrówave wrote:

It's amazing what some people will do. There was a woman arrested here last week for leaving her 3 kids (ages 4 & under) home... WHILE SHE WENT OUT ON A DATE!!!

Obviously that isn't right, but I don't believe what Madeleine's parents did was negligence. The restaurant they were in was 100 yards from the holiday apartment and they were checking on their children every half an hour. Maybe they should have brought their children with them, but, I can see why they did what they did.

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Posted: 16 May 07, 15:52 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Bring her back you motherfucker. :(

So sad, man.

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Posted: 16 May 07, 16:30 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

As a parent, you must make sacrifices. There were many many times when my son was small that I wished I could go out to a certain restaurant, or to a concert, whatever. But unless there was someone available to properly supervise him, I would have never ever dreamed of leaving him alone at the age of 3. Or 4, or 5. It only takes a split second for an accident to happen, for a child to wander off, to fall out a window, to break a glass and get cut, and on, and on. And then the damage is done. If they wanted to go out without their children they should have found someone trustworthy to attend to them while they were out. And if they could not they should have gone to a family oriented restaurant and taken their children, or got carry out. Nonetheless, I hope that poor child is returned to her family. And I hope that if she is that they behave more responsibly.


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Posted: 16 May 07, 17:19 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Janet wrote:

As a parent, you must make sacrifices. There were many many times when my son was small that I wished I could go out to a certain restaurant, or to a concert, whatever. But unless there was someone available to properly supervise him, I would have never ever dreamed of leaving him alone at the age of 3. Or 4, or 5. It only takes a split second for an accident to happen, for a child to wander off, to fall out a window, to break a glass and get cut, and on, and on. And then the damage is done. If they wanted to go out without their children they should found someone trustworthy to attend to them while they were out. And if they could not they should have gone to a family oriented restaurant and taken their children, or got carry out. Nonetheless, I hope that poor child is returned to her family. And I hope that if she is that they behave more responsibly.


Janet, you are exactly right. I agree with this 100%.


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Posted: 16 May 07, 18:28 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

You'd expect doctors who've had to undergo IVF just to produce children to be more...present.

Plus, the issue shouldn't be whether you can leave a 3 year old,it's whether there can be any possible justification for leaving two 2 year olds and a 3 year old unsupervised (despite onsite babysitting facilities and the fact that you're a PARENT, and therefore have responsibilities), other than pure selfishness.

I hope that the child either died quickly and relatively painlessly, or is returned with as little abuse as possible. However I also hope that the parents have their remaining children taken off them once they return to the UK and are forever stigmatised as a result not only of their actions, but of their bleating to the press in lieu of accepting the blame for their role in the incident.

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Posted: 16 May 07, 18:29 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

I further think that a wikipedia page on the subject is fucking appaling. What's the point? Doesn't the BBC cover the subject in enough harrowing detail???

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Posted: 16 May 07, 18:36 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Penetration_Guru wrote:

You'd expect doctors who've had to undergo IVF just to produce children to be more...present.

Plus, the issue shouldn't be whether you can leave a 3 year old,it's whether there can be any possible justification for leaving two 2 year olds and a 3 year old unsupervised (despite onsite babysitting facilities and the fact that you're a PARENT, and therefore have responsibilities), other than pure selfishness.

I hope that the child either died quickly and relatively painlessly, or is returned with as little abuse as possible. However I also hope that the parents have their remaining children taken off them once they return to the UK and are forever stigmatised as a result not only of their actions, but of their bleating to the press in lieu of accepting the blame for their role in the incident.

I'm sure what's happened is punishment enough, without having their remaining children taken away from them.

I don't blame the parents, it's not their fault that a sick person took their child. Perhaps they could have been more careful, but I think they've learnt their lesson.

You can see how important their children are to them and I doubt they would ever knowingly put their children in danger. Maybe I'm just too naive though.

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Posted: 16 May 07, 18:52 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Janet,
I totally agree with you, but unfortunately it doesn't take brains to breed, naturally or through IVF. You just need to know how to screw, or have the money to pay for IVF.
I don't care how far the restaurant was from the hotel room, or that they were checking on them regularly...what they did was inexcusable. I would say that the parents deserve what happend, but that would be unfair to the innocent Madeline. As a parent, you DON'T EVER leave your child unsupervised...ever. When you have a child, you have a responsibility and a duty to raise that child and protect that child until they are old enough to protect themselves. The only excusable way I could see this working is if the other children were 16+.
I also hope that Madeline died painlessly, because she probably is. If she's still alive, I hope that they never let her go back to her obviously negligent parents, and I hope they take away the other children. These people are obviously not ready to be parents, nor are they responsible enough.


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Posted: 16 May 07, 19:05 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

<b><font color=009966>?Freya? wrote:

I'm sure what's happened is punishment enough, without having their remaining children taken away from them.

I don't blame the parents, it's not their fault that a sick person took their child. Perhaps they could have been more careful, but I think they've learnt their lesson.

You can see how important their children are to them and I doubt they would ever knowingly put their children in danger. Maybe I'm just too naive though.


I'm sorry, Freya, but I'll have to agree only with your last statement.

While I'm sure the parents are suffering over what's happened - and what they imagine has happened - it's not necessarily punishing them to take away their remaining children as much as it is protecting those children from clearly irresponsible parents.

No, it is not their fault that some sick person took their child, but it IS their fault that the opportunity arose. They weren't asleep in the next room. They weren't even in the same building. That is negligent. And if they did this, as you say without 'knowingly leaving their children in danger', then they are no less dangerous as parents than a parent who did it knowingly. Instead, these parents are clearly ignorant to the needs of children and to the responsibilities of caretakers.

Could this have happened if they were right there? Possibly. But it didn't. THIS child was abducted because her parents took some alone time without providing alternate supervision for their children.

There is no excuse for what they did. The agony that guilt will cause them until/unless this child is found will be excruciating. But, sadly, they are indeed to blame.


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Posted: 16 May 07, 19:12 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

CMU HistoryGirl wrote:

Janet,
I totally agree with you, but unfortunately it doesn't take brains to breed, naturally or through IVF. You just need to know how to screw, or have the money to pay for IVF.
I don't care how far the restaurant was from the hotel room, or that they were checking on them regularly...what they did was inexcusable. I would say that the parents deserve what happend, but that would be unfair to the innocent Madeline. As a parent, you DON'T EVER leave your child unsupervised...ever. When you have a child, you have a responsibility and a duty to raise that child and protect that child until they are old enough to protect themselves. The only excusable way I could see this working is if the other children were 16+.
I also hope that Madeline died painlessly, because she probably is. If she's still alive, I hope that they never let her go back to her obviously negligent parents, and I hope they take away the other children. These people are obviously not ready to be parents, nor are they responsible enough.


Oh please, people leave young children all the time and it doesn't make them bad parents. I used to have a friend whose parents always used to leave her and her younger sister alone when they were about 4 or 5, and I never agreed with it, but no harm ever came of it. I think it's totally wrong to say these children should be taken away from their parents. Doing that would definitely cause more harm than good.

Like I said in my first posting, we left my cousin alone in a hotel room and she's 8 months old, and that certainly doesn't make my aunt and uncle bad parents, in fact I have never met a set of more devoted parents than my aunt and uncle. Granted, it was completely different, we were in the same building and same floor as my cousin and could practically see the door of the room from where we were, and we had the baby monitor so we could hear her all the time.

Perhaps it's slightly different when they're older and they can walk, because, as Janet said , it only takes a split second for a child to wander off and hurt themselves.

Nobody could've guessed that would've happened and whether or not it was 'their fault' NOBODY deserves that.

There are children treated a lot worse than they treat their children who don't get their kids taken away, and I think things should be kept in perspective. The parents did not harm their children, they simply made a terrible mistake.

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Posted: 16 May 07, 19:58 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

As a parent and a social worker, the state I live in, it is illegal to leave a child under the age of 8 unsupervised. Even a child over the age of 8 it is still up to a Cabinet for Health and Family Services worker to make the judgement call on whether or not the child who is being left alone knows what to do incase of a fire or other emergency. If that social worker does not feel that child, no matter the age of 8 or 11 is not capabable of being left alone, they must call a judge and ask for an emergency custody order to take the child. Then a whole other process/investigation/court trials take place.

As a mother and a social worker, children should never be left out of the sight of their parents for even a second if at all possible. My children are never out of my sight unless they are at school, their babysitter's, or their grandparents. I have an 8 year old daughter and she is allowed to play outside with her friends while I sit in our driveway and watch her. She has three friends that I allow her to go inside their homes to play bc I've been in their homes, met their parents, and am comfortable that the homes are safe. Maybe I am too strict but these are my children and my responsibility and I will never EVER allow them to be put in a situation where someone will EVER have an opportunity to take them from me. If someone wants to try and take them from me, then they had better be prepared for a brutal fight or to kill me bc that is the only way someone will ever be able to take my children from me.

This world has a lot of awful people in it. You can't trust anyone hardly. I have not read that story you posted yet Freya but I have heard about it and it's awful. I'm not sure who is to blame since I haven't read it but I will read it. Placing blame right now though won't solve much. But I can say that from personal experience that if you keep your eyes on your children at ALL times, the chances of them being taken from someone who is not supposed to have them is slim to none. Like I said before, the only way my children will be abducted is if someone kills me or disables me from holding on to them bc I'd never let anyone take them from me while I was alive.

Some might say there is no way that I can keep my eyes on my children 24/7 and that is true. While they are in my house, safe, then I don't have to keep my eyes on them constantly. But if we are at the grocery store, Anthony is in the shopping cart and Cameron walks next to me with one hand on the cart. The both know that it would only take a second for someone to take them from me and they know they don't want to be taken from their parents so they stay close. When we go to public parks where my children might be in two different spots where I can't physically watch them both at all times, then I take another set of eyes with me, either my husband or a friend, or their grandparents. There is no other option in today's world. I don't care who thinks I'm being irrational or too hovering. I love my children more than anything else in this world and they will NEVER be put in a situation to where someone can take them and they will never be left alone at home until they reach a mental and physical age where I feel like they are capable of handling emergency situations. I do not know when that will happen but I'll know when its right.

This is all my own personal beliefs and choices with my own children. Everyone else can do what they like but I can live every day of my life knowing that my children will NEVER be taken from me bc I will be with them at all times. They are my responsibility, no one else's. I am responsible for their safety and well-being.


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Posted: 16 May 07, 20:42 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

I hate to sound so cold but lets be honest. How many of us really care about what may or may not have happened to that little girl? Of course I'd love to see her returned alive and well to her family but all this media attention is doing nothing more than to flog a few newspapers and show the great British public up for the mindless fuckwits they really are. This has happened time and time again. Princess Diana dies and we queue for hours to sign books or lay flowers for someone we have never met. The World Trade Centres are attacked and again we feel we have to put on a huge display of public grief with each one of us a little more upset than the last.
Remember when Ken Bigley had his head lopped off on video (does any one else even remember Ken Bigley?) and one silly wee girl from Queenzone made a special website where we were all supposed to line up and pay our respects.
Now along comes another tragedy and the press convinces us that we should all be beating our chests and trying to outdo each other in the grief stakes. It's a pretty safe bet that ther will be a 2 minute ( or are we up to 10 minutes now?) silence at football matches the length and breadth of the UK in the next week or so.
I hate to be the one who breaks this but there are kids dying right now in Africa, Iraq, Afghanistan and in every other continent of the world. Whn do they get their pictures on the front page of the newspapers?
If you know the family and want to offer support, feel free but all this forced grief is doing nothing but paying for Mr Murdoch's next ivory back-scratcher.

fatty.

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Posted: 17 May 07, 02:52 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Well... here in Gran Canaria there has been 2 kidnappings: 1 of a 14 year old girl named Sara and one of a 7 year old boy named Jeremi. I think that these kind of things are like very complicated. So, almost 3 in a row in Spain -.-'


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Posted: 17 May 07, 06:08 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

<b><font color=009966>?Freya? wrote:

Micrówave wrote:

It's amazing what some people will do. There was a woman arrested here last week for leaving her 3 kids (ages 4 & under) home... WHILE SHE WENT OUT ON A DATE!!!

Obviously that isn't right, but I don't believe what Madeleine's parents did was negligence. The restaurant they were in was 100 yards from the holiday apartment and they were checking on their children every half an hour. Maybe they should have brought their children with them, but, I can see why they did what they did.


Let's not blame the parents, but the sick asshole who took her. And to be honest... I'm afraid she's not alive anymore, or she's alive in some cellar being abused all days.


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Posted: 17 May 07, 06:23 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

Shit happens.

Really... you can blame anyone you want, but the perp obviously had it in their head that they were going to snatch a kid. If it wasn't this one, it may well have been someone else.

I can't understate the importance of keeping an eye on your kids pretty much at all times. For every hundred days nothing goes wrong 'when I only left him for a minute', there can always be one fuck up. And you need to be around to deal with it. Within earshot. It's just how childbearing is.
I'm only an uncle, but this stuff is common sense to me.

Well.... here's hoping they find the kid, anyway.


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Posted: 17 May 07, 11:47 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

<b><font color=009966>?Freya? wrote:

CMU HistoryGirl wrote:

Janet,
I totally agree with you, but unfortunately it doesn't take brains to breed, naturally or through IVF. You just need to know how to screw, or have the money to pay for IVF.
I don't care how far the restaurant was from the hotel room, or that they were checking on them regularly...what they did was inexcusable. I would say that the parents deserve what happend, but that would be unfair to the innocent Madeline. As a parent, you DON'T EVER leave your child unsupervised...ever. When you have a child, you have a responsibility and a duty to raise that child and protect that child until they are old enough to protect themselves. The only excusable way I could see this working is if the other children were 16+.
I also hope that Madeline died painlessly, because she probably is. If she's still alive, I hope that they never let her go back to her obviously negligent parents, and I hope they take away the other children. These people are obviously not ready to be parents, nor are they responsible enough.


Oh please, people leave young children all the time and it doesn't make them bad parents. I used to have a friend whose parents always used to leave her and her younger sister alone when they were about 4 or 5, and I never agreed with it, but no harm ever came of it. I think it's totally wrong to say these children should be taken away from their parents. Doing that would definitely cause more harm than good.

Like I said in my first posting, we left my cousin alone in a hotel room and she's 8 months old, and that certainly doesn't make my aunt and uncle bad parents, in fact I have never met a set of more devoted parents than my aunt and uncle. Granted, it was completely different, we were in the same building and same floor as my cousin and could practically see the door of the room from where we were, and we had the baby monitor so we could hear her all the time.

Perhaps it's slightly different when they're older and they can walk, because, as Janet said , it only takes a split second for a child to wander off and hurt themselves.

Nobody could've guessed that would've happened and whether or not it was 'their fault' NOBODY deserves that.

There are children treated a lot worse than they treat their children who don't get their kids taken away, and I think things should be kept in perspective. The parents did not harm their children, they simply made a terrible mistake.


I have to disagree, Freya. You may think your friends, or your aunt or uncle are not bad parents, but it only takes 30 seconds for a child to be abducted, or 30 seconds from them to hurt themselves. I'm not trying to absolve the abductor of responsibility...he/she needs to be caught and punished. But I am saying that he never could have abducted her had her parents protected her, like they are supposed to do. They NEVER should have left the floor without taking their children with them...they provided the opprotunity that the abductor used to take Madeline. This makes them half responsible for that happend. It's like saying, "Oh, yeah, there is a pool in the backyard without a cover or fence, and my 5 year old is out there alone with no one watching her, but it's ok...nothing bad will happen." Do I need to tell you how many times this statement has been proven tragically wrong? These are children we are talking about...not pets or full grown adults. They don't know how to protect themselves, and when you have responsibility for a child (parent, relative, babysitter, etc.) you have to protect that child not only from others, but from themselves. The "Nobody could have known what would happen" argument doesn't hold water. We can't see the future, we can't know it, and it's a matter of choice in the end. Are you willing to bet on the fact that no


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Posted: 17 May 07, 13:06 Edit this post Reply to this post Reply with Quote

This reminds me of the girl that was abducted back in 2000 - Sarah Payne. Dont ask why...
It's just really sad that a family can't go on holiday and leave thier kids somewhere without summat like this happening.
Now, a lot of people are blaming the parents, saying they were irresponible to leave them on their own. But the parents must have been fairly confiedent that they could leave them on their own - so that must mean that they've leaft them on their own before...
Now my parents leave me on my own - but that's completely different because I'm a lot older and responsible. But her parents were only a matter of minutes away from their apartment - am I right? So there must have been someone watching the apartment day and night - it would be pot luck to walk into an aparment and find a little girl on her own.
I do hope they find this little girl - but (I'm sorry of this sounds like I'm being negative) it's been two weeks. The chances of finding her are growing slimmer all the while. I do hope they find her though.



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